065 AiA News From AngularConnect

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AngularConnect

Track 1 PlaylistTrack 2 Playlist

02:30 - Going to Beta

09:23 - Angular 1.x

17:39 - Peter’s Thoughts as an Organizer of AngularConnect

26:33 - Highlights

31:46 - Soft Skills Talks

35:03 - What is the next big Angular Conference on the horizon?

36:09 - Going to Beta (Cont’d)

44:19 - NativeScript

47:06 - Angular Cheat Sheet

49:54 - Material Design

Joe’s List for ““talks to watch if you want to get up to date with Angular 2”

Joe’s Additional Recommendations

Suggest topics and guests! Contribute to the repo aiatopics!

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AngularConnect (Joe)Denmark (Joe)Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer (Official) (John)Ultimate t-shirt for trolling science fiction fans (Chuck)Rush Revere and the Brave Pilgrims by Rush Limbaugh (Chuck)The Magician's Nephew by C. S. Lewis (Chuck)MONEY Master the Game: 7 Simple Steps to Financial Freedom by Tony Robbins (Chuck)

Transcript

[This episode is sponsored by Hired.com. Every week on Hired, they run an auction where over a thousand tech companies in San Francisco and New York and LA get on JavaScript developers providing to put the salary and equity upfront. The average JavaScript developer gets an average of 5-15 introductory offers and an average salary of over $130,000 a year. You just can either accept an offer and go right into interviewing with the company and neither with that any continuing obligations. It's totally free for users, and when you're hired, they'll also give you a $2,000 signing bonus as a "Thank You" for using them. But if you use the Adventures in Angular link, you'll get a $4,000 bonus instead. Finally, if you're not looking for a job but know someone who is, you can refer them to Hired to get a $1,337 bonus if they accept the job. Go sign up at Hired.com/AdventuresinAngular.]**[Ready to master AngularJS? Oasis Digital offers Angular Boot Camp, a three-day, in-person workshop class for individuals or teams. Bring us to your site or send developers to ours classes in St. Louis or San Francisco – AngularBootCamp.com.]**[This episode is sponsored by Digital Ocean. Digital Ocean is the provider I use to host all of my creations. All the shows are hosted there, along with any other projects I come up with. Their user interface is simple and easy to use. Their support is excellent. And their VPSes are backed on solid-state drives and are fast and responsive. Check them out at DigitalOcean.com. If you use the code “Angularadventures” you'll get a $10 credit!]**[This episode is sponsored by Telerik, the makers of Kendo UI. Kendo UI integrates seamlessly with both AngularJS 1.x and 2.0. It provides everything you need to integrate with AngularJS out-of-the-box bindings, component configuration and directives, template directives, form validation, event handlers and much more and yet Kendo UI tooling does not depend on AngularJS. So if you want to use it with Angular or not, that’s totally up to you. You could check it out at KendoUI.com] **CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to episode 65 of the Adventures in Angular Show. This week on our panel we have Joe Eames. JOE: Hey everybody. CHUCK: John Papa. JOHN: Hey everyone! CHUCK: Ward Bell. WARD: Hello, hello! CHUCK: I’m Charles Max Wood from Devchat.tv. We’re probably going to have Peter Bacon Darwin join us in a few minutes. He was one of the organizers of AngularConnect. We’re going to talk about some of the news about Angular that came up during the conference. Joe, do you want to give us some of the highlights? JOE: Yeah. So the big news was they wanted to go to beta in AngularConnect but couldn’t quite get it done in time. The word that I hear is that beta for Angular is anywhere from three to nine weeks away; that’s what they anticipated. That’s pretty unusual to have them actually say a date or a time frame of any kind so my assumptions that’s fairly realistic – I certainly wouldn’t, if I was a betting man, put any money on even nine weeks but that’s certainly not unreasonable to assume that they’ll hit it, but you never know. You always know that software development could go a little bit long. Some might be more than nine weeks and so here it is – October 20th. We certainly could be seeing beta in November and probably the worst case, December. CHUCK: Yeah, I was going to say nine weeks is the – it’s New Year’s basically. JOE: Yeah, right. And maybe it’ll be on a January when we finally see the beta version but I think the main point that they – this for me is the biggest news by far. There are some other smaller things that came out and I’ll go over those, but by far the main point there is that even though we are still shortly away from beta, the API – they have said they feel like it’s stable. So we’re not going to see these weekly breaking changes that we’ve been seeing in alpha. Now of course, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be some breaking changes but it’s [chuckles]. JOHN: I can guarantee. Let’s put some money on it – I guarantee there’s a breaking change or two coming your way soon. JOE: Oh, I want money on that one right now. [Laughter] CHUCK: I think that’s a fair bet since they're not really willing to put the beta or release candidate stamped on it quite yet. JOE: Even in beta, we should see some breaking changes but I think for the Angular team, beta means two things; one, the API is stable – not static but stable. CHUCK: Right. JOE: So we’re not going to see the kinds of changes we were seeing before where one week it works and then next week you're doing something entirely different just to get Angular up and running and all the syntax is entirely different. We’re still going to see some breaking changes but it’s going to be small – smaller things like one breaking change per release rather than ten. And then documentation which Ward knows all kinds of things about. I think for them that’s what beta is – good documentation so that people can learn the product and the API fairly stable. Even though it’s not labeled beta right now, the main reason it’s not labeled beta is because they're still working hard to make sure the documentation is up to snuff. And actually – John, you may not know this but you’ve got quite a few shout-outs during the conference for your contributions to the documentation as did Ward. So you guys were the only two mentioned by name when it came to documentation. JOHN: That’s good to hear. I actually haven’t watched most of the sessions because I’ve been working so I’m planning on watching this evening. WARD: I’m hoping they recorded them all because I haven’t had a chance to watch them but I did have a premium look at the Keynote deck and that looked pretty impressive to me. How did that go over, Joe? JOE: The Keynote was really interesting and I highly recommend that everybody watch it. To watch the videos, just go to AngularConnect.com and then they have links to all the videos. CHUCK: Do they have the videos up now? JOE: I believe one is up now; I’m not sure if Day 2 has been put up or not but the recording place which is the same one we used for ng-conf, they're really good about getting the videos put up really quick. JOHN: Yeah. The Keynote got up a little bit late from yesterday and I start to watch – I watched the first 15 minutes of that this morning but the [inaudible] pretty good. I dug it up this morning. JOE: Right. Certainly by the time anybody is listening to this episode, they’re up. For me, what was interesting about the Keynote is that each person taught for just a short time and they had a lot of different people go up like the Ionic guys got up and talked. I’m trying to remember who else got up. Who else got up? CHUCK: Oh wow, so it wasn’t just the core team? JOHN: No, I scanned through the deck. They’ve got a bunch – they're like seven or eight different people there. Norbert reminded me of Joe – reminded me of a Microsoft Keynote. JOE: Did it really? JOHN: Yeah because that’s generally what they do. They’ll have somebody go up there and do a narration talk, someone like Brad for example, leading the whole story and then bringing up other partners and people to tell the sub-stories and the plots along the way. JOE: Right. JOHN: And FYI Peter just joined us. CHUCK: Peter? PETER: Good to see you and to hear from you. [Laughter] CHUCK: Long day for a conference organizer, huh? PETER: Yeah, I’m literally about to go to bed before I paused and say hello to you. CHUCK: Well, thanks for putting on such a great event. PETER: I guessed you watched it on live stream? CHUCK: I’m planning on it but it sounds like it was from what I’m hearing. JOE: Yeah, they're mostly taking my word for it. [Laughter] PETER: That was brilliant. Yeah, fantastic. JOHN: So who else was on Keynote besides Ionic? JOE: Brad and Igor were the only two core team members that’s [crosstalk]. PETER: Telerik. JOE: Yeah, Telerik was there. PETER: And they talked about NativeScript. JOE: Right. Wasn’t the TypeScript team – did they got up during the Keynote? Or maybe that was the first talk afterwards. PETER: Straight afterwards is the new head of the TypeScript team. JOE: Yeah. JOHN: The Meteor guy was out there, too. JOE: Oh yeah. Meteor guy was out there. He was talking about performance. That was – that part was particularly interesting to me. And of course you always have to take very performance craft with a great assault because they can always choose to test the best things about performance and the fact that Angular 2 doesn’t use a virtual dom means that there are definitely things you can do which are going to show the other frameworks they do use a virtual dom or faster for that type of thing but the graphs [inaudible]. Meteor guy was showing that Angular 2 is the fastest of the major frameworks that are released right now both in initial rendering time and re-rendering and updating time so it was a pretty serious performance measuring –. PETER: As the graph goes it was pretty – the other graphs were lineally going up and the Angular 2 graph was as flat as a pancake. Rex, it was all orders and magnitude faster. Again, I don’t know how exactly is – how realistic that [inaudible] is but it was very dramatic. JOE: Certainly, we can – rest assured which I think we could always have done this even back with ng-conf when we first saw these performance metrics. Angular 2 is hanging in there with fastest of the frameworks. Whether it truly is faster in every case or just faster in a few cases, whatever the point being is right up there – you don’t have to worry about performance when you're dealing with Angular 2 and they talked on different places about using immutable data observables to potentially increase your performance even further but even with that [crosstalk]. WARD: I’m betting that that flat line was with immutable data. That’s how you get a flat line like that is when they use immutable data or sometimes an observable data. JOE: Yeah, looking at the graph, some of the things are the flat line weren’t necessarily as you increase the load. It’s over more just over time and things like that but [crosstalk] JOHN: Hey guys, I think Peter’s going to bed sooner. I’m dying to hear stuff about Angular 1.x as well. And Peter, that’s you’re niche, isn’t it? JOE: Peter did give a great talk on 1.5. WARD: That and also all the effort going into ngUpgrade which I think you participated in a lot, didn’t you Pete? PETER: Yes I did. The talk that I gave is, in fact, in two parts. I did it with Lucas Mirelmann and the two parts were – part 1 was what’s coming in Angular 1.5 and part two was what outrageous features are we looking to add to the ecosystem as a whole to help people move from 1.5 or to Angular 2. CHUCK: That sound like two episodes that we should have in the future. JOE: Yeah. JOHN: Yeah, they do. PETER: Well, the second half which was the upgrading which was again split into two parts because there were two projects that we are promoting. There’s the ngUpgrade project which [inaudible] has mostly been working on although Igor and I had a little bit of hand in that initially. And then there’s another one called ng-forward which is basically annotating Angular 1 code using – basically, a way of writing your Angular 1 code using decorators and ES6 classes and modules in such a way that it looks really similar to Angular 2 code. And these two projects – so the ngUpgrade project is about intraoperation of Angular 1 and Angular 2 within the same application. JOE: So I want to ask you a question about that Pete. I’ve seen plenty of people talking before about, “Hey, you want to make your Angular 1 code easier to upgrade. Use controller as and write everything as a directive.” And I’ve also played around with Angular 2 a fair amount but I haven’t necessarily done any serious stuff where I was looking at the upgrade path. But just from my cursory look I got this feeling that these things that people are saying to do to prepare your Angular 1 code, in the end you're going to make a very tiny amount of difference than the total amount of effort that’s going to take. What’s your opinion? And I didn’t think that it was a necessarily bad thing because writing better Angular 1 code is still a better idea using controller as and using directives to compartmentalize and then encapsulate your code is a good idea. Do you feel like it’s a meaningful difference? Where [inaudible] they can put their Angular 1 code this way. PETER: I think there’s a definite benefit from doing it. The way I see it is that any team that’s going to do an upgrade for an application – and it must be a pretty big application to want to do an upgrade more than just a rewrite – there’s going to be a number of different facets that you’re going to meet to look at. There’s some obvious ones like translating the code from the way that it is in Angular 1 to Angular 2, and also there’s an understanding that conceptual differences between Angular 1 and Angular 2, getting your head around that as a team, training up on the new languages. So if you're going to use TypeScript for instance, getting your team to understand how to use those, getting on top of the tooling that you need. Obviously when you start using ES or TypeScript then there’s transpolation involved and another module packaging and loading and so on. So there’s all these different features that you're going to have to build upon. And one of the things that I think of in terms of upgrade is how can I do that bit by bit without trying to do everything all at once? Perhaps the idea of starting with your Angular 1 code and saying, “Okay, let’s just work within Angular 1 to make our code slightly conceptually more similar to what we’re going to do in Angular 2 which is what uses ng-controller, what uses scope but use components much more and try to write those components using this component as – controller as style so that your using this rather than scope much more. I think that is much as anything is setting them right mental – resetting the mental model for your developers so that they are starting to think in a slightly more angular 2 way. JOE: Right. PETER: So rather than necessarily thinking ‘how many lines of code am I going to have to touch in order to make the transition enough to have done that?’ I think there’s more to with ‘how do I change the culture from within my team to make them more focused on the way that Angular 2 [inaudible]?’ JOE: So even if it doesn’t save you half the time, it’s still a very valuable effort to go through. PETER: Because then when you do that stuff doing the translation, you're not trying to learn to change your conceptual view of life as when you're trying to do the nitty gritty in the component upgrades at the same time. JOE: Right. JOHN: The whole point is I think, as Peter said, if you’re in a mindset that you want to upgrade and not rewrite, you’ve already decided you don’t want to take a hundred things at once which is what rewriting is. So if you're going to upgrade, it’s better to get your head straight and prepare for it, learn TypeScript or ES6, go there. And I don’t think – my way of talking are along these lines Joe but I don’t think doing these things is going to make your code better for Angular 2 so much as your mental state meaning if you learn how to do controller as you write and more in line with what components and classes look like, it’s going to be less of a leap for you to look at TypeScript or ES6 and go, “Okay, now I get this.” Because what I’m seeing with folks right now who are still using Angular 1 and restarted it with Angular 1.0, some of those patterns that they are using and I showed them angular 2, it was a massive leap for them to think about SystemJS or Webpack or TypeScript or annotations. I see this as an exercise in getting ready for the next stage. JOE: Right. Another thing that I thought was interesting from Pete’s talk is he showed the relative search – or no, maybe it wasn’t you, it was Brad who showed the relative hits between the Angular 2 site and the Angular 1 site and the Angular 1 is still 93 or 97% of the traffic. PETER: Yeah, very much so. But you got to remember he also have to slide up this head. We currently get about a million unique hits, visitors on the Angular 1 sites. And so Angular 1 is just so far ahead in terms of uses that however fast Angular 2 grows it’s going to still take a long time to catch up. JOE: Right. PETER: So if you have what was 93 or 97% or something, I think 7% of a million hits on Angular 1 is getting pretty big already. JOE: Yeah, [inaudible]. PETER: It might be interesting to see a similar graph compared to, say, another framework. JOE: Right. PETER: Rather than Angular 1. JOE: For me it was nice to see that the Angular team is continuing its commitment to Angular 1 so for people that are still using Angular 1 have products that are not going to get upgraded, they still aren’t in a place for them to worry about anything. PETER: That’s actually true because someone tweeted to me actually saying, “You’ve mentioned 1.6 in your talk. What does that mean? When’s that due and what are you going to put in it? Because I thought 1.5 was basically the end of Angular 1.” And I put 1.6 in the slideshow exactly to signal everyone that there is an ongoing path for Angular 1 that – 1.5 is the next step but after that we’ll then start adding more features again and then we’re going again to 1.6 and 1.7 and so on. The end of Angular 1 is a long, long way off. JOE: It’s almost silly to have to talk about it. I hate the fact because it’s almost like bringing up the topic. It makes people think about it and –. JOHN: You know you do Joes, you know you do that’s why it seemed like even the 15 minutes that I watched the Keynote before I get back to do my job. It seems like Brad – everything that Brad was saying was trying to reinforce that so I appreciate that because I’ve worked with a lot of people who are scared that Angular 1 is gone. I really appreciated that they took a lot of effort not only in [inaudible] and moving forward with Peter and his team but making sure this is not pretty past. CHUCK: Well, you have to realize that in most of the other frameworks that I’ve worked in at least in Ruby and JavaScript, once they move on to that next major version, they don’t even talk about the old version let alone think about supporting it. So there’s a major security flaw and they feel like, “Okay, we have enough people on this where we got to go close that up,” they won’t touch it. And I think they're trying to give us that reassurance that ‘hey look, we’re not going to leave you out on the cold if you’ve got a cold base that still needs our help. JOE: Like anything, it’s going to disappear someday. Everything disappears someday in support but as long as you're not leaving people and you’ve got a good path, I like how the tracking – that hurts to see when is that point going to be? JOHN: It’s a good feeling. JOE: So being conscious of Pete, I’d like to talk about the other aspect of Pete’s involvement in this thing and maybe start talking about his involvement as an organizer of AngularConnect just because it was a very interesting, very great conference. PETER: I’d like to say one thing is that it’s really privileged to have Joe with us – staying with us in the moment because over the last six or twelve months he and Aaron have acted as mentors for us and given unlimited supply of really useful information and support and we’ve really done [inaudible] from that. Any sort of success that we’ve had is very much built upon not only listening to their ideas but also looking at what ng-conf does well and being inspired by that. That’s been a massive suspense for us and we’ve really appreciate how generous they have been with that time and their ideas and all. JOE: Thank you for saying that. CHUCK: You could’ve made Joe put your kids to bed. [Laughter] PETER: He spent a good period of time talking Star Wars with my son so he’s done his work this evening. [Laughter] CHUCK: New trailer’s out. JOHN: I’ve already bought my tickets, man. My family’s got tickets. PETER: Me too. There was an email that went out this afternoon actually from my friend and my son’s friends so they booking theirs already as well. JOE: So Pete, give us some of your thoughts and impressions of the conference being an organizer, what you thought went great about the conference. Any specific thoughts about changes for future conf – future versions of AngularConnect, et cetera? PETER: Yeah, so I think the conference in general had a really good vibe. It felt very happy. I really felt like people enjoyed themselves. Lots of the feedback that we got anecdotically was that the word that just kept coming out was ‘fun’ and that made me really proud and happy because we want people to be enjoying themselves as well as getting stuff like information out of it. The one thing that we did which is slightly novel and which I think is a really good idea but maybe didn’t quite work as well as I hoped is we had this idea of separating talks from Q&A so rather than allowing Q&A to happen at the end of the talk, we assigned every set of speakers or group of speakers to have their own completely separate session of which we called AMA like ‘Ask Me Anything’ which meant that they can focus on just getting through this talk in the main track and then later on they can have a much more detailed and intimate discussion with the people who really cared about that subject. For me I thought this was part of what we were trying to achieve in AngularConnect of actually giving people the opportunity to really get connected with the people who were giving the talks and with each other in a more intimate environment and formal environment. Now I thought that was a really good idea and I think it just about worked but what I think didn’t work quite so well is I don’t think we solved this idea as well as we could’ve done for both the attendees and speakers. So the speakers didn’t quite realize how they can get the most out of that arrangement and I think the attendees were still quite obsessed about making sure they saw all of the talks that they thought they wanted to see. The thing is we were live streaming and recording all the talks and you can go watch those later. The AMAs were not being recorded or streamed. They were very much about being there at that moment and that’s what I thought they were paying the tickets for, the actual contact. And so the number of people in the end of my session was not as high as I hoped but I guessed that the upside of that is that you had people like Rado or Naomi or Brad or Igor speaking in these AMA sessions with maybe a few dozen people and all those few dozen people getting really, really direct good access to these people. They were able to really get deep into any questions. On the one hand, I felt more people could’ve benefited, on the other hand, those people who did benefit got amazing access. JOE: Yeah, I was really impressed with the AMA sessions. I ended up acting as a facilitator for about three hours today. And then I had my own AMA session as a speaker later on and I really liked the idea and I thought it went great. When I was the speaker, I had s particularly small group, five or six, but it didn’t end up being a really nice conversation but it would’ve been nice to see other people less concerned about being in their sessions and go out and join the speakers. So I agree with you; it actually was a great idea that maybe some iteration in the future. The one thing I did notice was that in my session our speakers hadn’t spoken yet and so people didn’t have any questions for one of – there’s three of us. People didn’t have any question for one of the three speakers because she wasn’t a recognized expert on anything. Of course if you put Igor and Brad in a room then it doesn’t matter. People are going to have questions, right? But that’s not true for all the speakers but I really like the AMA. I thought that it was – at ng-conf we always did this office hours work. Speakers go outside the hall, people can go out and ask questions and we were lucky if two people went out and ask questions. So we had a much better success for getting people connected with the speakers than we have had in the past at ng-conf. PETER: I think the trick is trying to find that balance between formality and informality. JOE: Right. PETER: If it’s too informal then it doesn’t quite happen; if it’s too formal then you don’t really feel that you can make that connection and really get deep. JOHN: I think people fear sometimes, too, actually going in meetings with these people. JOE: I’ve seen a lot of these, too where let’s say I put Brad – go talk to Brad in the hallway. I talked to a lot of people who were just for whatever reason too shy to –. JOHN: Starstruck. JOE: Yeah, starstruck to go do this where at least we put them in a room where it’s still chairs and table kind of thing. There’s enough separation where people go do it. I’ve have to have it both ways where I’ve left on a thousand person in a room and then ten people follow me for questions in the hallway versus going to a separate room or an area to sign for and you get a hundred people there. So whatever, it’s human behavior but I think it’s a great idea either way because you can really learn a lot both ways there. CHUCK: Yeah, and for the benefit of our listeners, I just want to encourage you go meet these folks – both speakers and other attendees because ultimately we can all go watch the videos but that’s the thing that you don’t get by not being at the conference. PETER: Yeah, absolutely. Maybe some of the other conferences will adopt this idea slightly and iterate on it and make it better. By the time we might get another chance to do it then it’ll be the norm and everyone will get it and then we’ll understand how to get the most of it. JOE: Right. PETER: I have to say that of all of the technical groups of people I’ve been involved in over the years, the Google team are easily the most accessible and most friendly. JOE: Oh my gosh, hands down. PETER: Yeah, they really make an effort. They're very humble and they make an effort to talk to everyone who wants to speak to them. JOE: Right. PETER: That’s one of the reasons why you get these nice atmospheres at these conferences. I have to say it’s really cool. JOE: Now I think a lot of that comes down from [inaudible] the leader of the Angular team. I think he realizes that there are very important position and encourages – plenty of other teams have really decent people in there; they just don’t realize that they're so valuable for other people to have access and talk to the team members. So I was involved at a React conference and there’s a couple of times, at least in the very beginning, I made a note to go up and talk to them and say, “Hey, it’s important for you guys to realize that everybody that’s here is really here for you. Yeah there’s other speakers but they're really here for you so the more you make yourself available, the better it is for the entire conference, for the entire industry.” Hopefully, they listen to me. I don’t really know but –. JOHN: Dan Wahlin and I coached at a conference – AngleBrackets – not at that particular ones because it’s newer but once I shared in the past, it’s really bothered me when I got into the speaker room and there are speakers in there who literally stayed there the whole time; they hide off in a separate room and they never make an appearance except when they're speaking. And people are dying to talk to these people. It’s like, c’mon, go out there and mingle. You're here to meet with these people. So if you're a speaker, too, and you're listening, talk to people. Get out of that room. Prepare your talk before you get to the conference. CHUCK: Yeah, totally. And the thing is is that honestly, if you're speaking, you are in a prime position to go meet people. You're up there, people are coming to your talk because they want to hear what you have to say, and then they come to basically make that connection. What you said really helped, what you said was really interesting. You can explore the topic a little more deeply with somebody who’s got some expertise in it. Yeah, get out there. I’ve been tempted to tell a few people, “Yeah, just go stand by the speaker’s room when they come out to use the bathroom.” [Chuckles] But yeah, I completely agree. Alright, so we just got done talking about speakers and stuff, and Pete had to go to bed. Maybe we should get back to where Angular 2 is at now. JOHN: Right. Obviously the big announcement was kind of what I said – there is no announcement because we’re still just shy of beta. I think what’s interesting to do is to go and look at the entire set of talks that was given in AngularConnect. A large portion of them were for Angular 1 which is obviously natural because Angular 1 is still what people are using. So they need those talks in order to continue on with their work. And so looking at the Angular 2 talks, there was more than just the, “Hey, here’s some syntax for you to look at,” but we’re actually seeing real talks about Angular 2. Brian Ford gave a great talk about the router which is one of the most highly attended talks. It was a two track conference so people can choose between two rooms. Now, it was one of those talks that just 90 or 95% of the people came and attended that talk so obviously the router is really interesting. There’s a talk on full Stack Angular that I didn’t see. The rest of course is getting start of type stuff. Matias is talking a lot about animations in Angular 2 so I think looking at these sorts of things the overall point here although there’s a big talk about testing by Julie Ralph. Oh hey, I also heard on this – on that day announced the Ionic team, the folks we talked to last week’s episode, Chuck – the Ionic 2 has some announcements for Angular 2 as well. JOE: Yeah, that was one of my favorite parts of the conference. I actually thought that they gave a great little talk and for me it was super interesting that they announced it, they published it. We can put a link to their Ionic 2 framework so you can start playing around with it. You should definitely go and watch it; it’s a pretty small piece of a Keynote – 25 minutes long so you should definitely go and watch but see how they're talking about it. Angular 2 is ready for [inaudible] I can – because of Angular 2 and its performance on the phone, it actually translates out there so the phone apps are even better now with Angular 2 than they were with Angular 1. More responsive, more sensitive. JOHN: Yeah, that’s going to be really exciting. There’s a couple of beginner one’s – two years. So we’ve got the Keynote – of course, it’s a great place to start for anybody and I’m just looking at the YouTube page, but there’s also a talk here Getting Started in Angular 2 which is, from what I understand, a very basic 101 level on how to get it to talk with – is it Rado? Pronounce his name? JOE: Yes. JOHN: And Naomi. JOE: Yup, that was a good one. JOHN: I didn’t get a chance to see any of Matias’s talk on ngAnimate. Could you tell us about how that went? JOE: I watched half of that talk and I found it to be very similar to this talk on animations from –he talked about it just briefly during ng-vegas but he did talk specifically about Angular 2. But I know he’s been working on an animation framework that could potentially be published as a third party library. I don’t know if he talked about moving in networks or not and if I missed it but this new animation might really – he’s been putting together looks really hot and he’s got –. If you’ve done animations – and serious animations – in Angular or JavaScript – not even JavaScript, just HTML or CSS, you know that at least hopefully you're going to [inaudible] with me. I thought it was particularly confusing. The way that you said the start and the end classes they just don’t jive and I find it to be – maybe this isn’t a great example but like the directive definition object is just very confusing and you really have to learn that. JOHN: Yeah, I agree with you. I’ve only seen snippets of Matias’s talk but I saw some of the animations he showed and they were pretty impressive. JOE: Right. JOHN: In the talk at AngularConnect. JOE: I’m most impressed with this API he’s put together and he talks about it and shows it. It’s so much more simpler to groc what is an animation and how to set up a start and the end of an animation and set those up. I’m just really impressed in many ways. This is potentially giving him too much credit but like what jQuery did for JavaScript he’s doing for animation. JOHN: Let’s admit it – it’s hard sometimes to actually get animations to work and understand. And generally what I’m doing is I look for a third party library that does it well and pull them in or I look at some animation I wrote and slaved over before and I copy and paste it to figure out where I need to go with it. It’d be great if transitions versus animations could be much easier in Angular 2 and I’d love to check out that talk. JOE: Yeah, that’s a good one to check out. I really like that one. My particularly two favorite pieces of announcements were Ionic and then Firebase. Sarah gave a great talk, showed off the Firebase and talked about how because of the way that Angular 2 was built, Firebase integrates so much better than it does with Angular 1 which is only going to be great with Angular 1 – no doubt about it but it was much easier for them to integrate with Angular 2 and it integrates better when you use pipes. You don’t have to worry about digest cycles. It was really slick and I was really excited about it. JOHN: I heard there was a talk about some guy becoming a Betazoid. Was that a good talk? [Laughter] JOE: Yeah, that was my talk and if you happen not to be a Star Trek fan who is alive during the early ‘90s then watch the next series. And you don’t know what Betazoid is but I actually gave a soft skills talk – that was my first conference talk that was a soft skills talk and I talked about having empathy and listening in a role that – in a workplace. So if that’s something that interests you, go check out my talk. I feel it went well and I got lots of positive feedback. So there were three soft skills talk. Mine – there was a woman named Savannah, I believe, who gave a talk about high performance individuals and I didn’t see her talk so I’m not entirely sure of her content. And then Aimee Knight who’s on the JavaScript Jabber podcast, she spoke about getting comfortable being uncomfortable and a lot of us – the focus of it was junior developers and the role of junior developers and the value of them and being one or being senior developer around junior developers. It was a really great talk. I really liked that she took away a lot of the mystique of being a junior developer and – or having one and hiring one and I think she did a great job, too. I think this is way of the future – at least it should be at the event. I see more of these at conferences, these soft skills – how to communicate how to talk, how to be more efficient at work. There’s too many of us in this industry, myself included, at times where I struggle with some of these things and it’s nice to see how full they are. I give a talk on just ways to communicate effectively at a conference and it shocked me that people came to the talk. So I think these things are things we should do more of. CHUCK: I completely agree. The hard problems in software these days aren’t what technology should I use – or at least generally they're not which technology should I use or how do I solve this problem in an effective way. You can go search Stack Overflow and find five. The real problems come in with the way that you interact with other people on your team and the way that you interact with people who are not on your team, who are stakeholders one way or the other, how you manage your career and all of these other things that affect the way the software gets made but the people issues are the harder ones, not the technical issues. JOE: Right. I just want to mention one of my favorite soft skills talks was Igor’s talk from ng-conf about meditation. I recommend that one. CHUCK: Yeah, it’s also funny to me though how many people dismiss some of those. I remember talking to people after ng-conf and some people were like, “Man, I really like Igor’s talk,” and then there were some people who were like, “Ugh, that was such a waste of time.” And what really depended on was what they were coming to the conference for and what they placed value on. JOE: Right. So this is something interesting in AngularConnect is that they actually have a meditation guide there in a room. You can go there during sessions, you can go into a meditation session while you're there at the conference. CHUCK: Oh cool. JOE: I didn’t [inaudible] but I heard a lot of good feedback from it. JOHN: I wonder if some people go in and never come back. [Laughter] They're still meditating while still in the conference. JOE: Right. CHUCK: I’d be slumped over in the corner. JOHN: So one thing that I ate about conferences, my least favorite thing about conferences is when it’s over that thrill – that rush is gone. All the excitement, all the great stuff, all the people that you’ve talked to in the hallway conversations, and then it’s like, “Ugh, when’s the next one going to be?” So Joe, what is the next big Angular conference that’s on the horizon? JOE: [Chuckles] Well as far as I know, it’s ng-conf. it will be in May and we are officially sold out in tickets. If your company happens to be sponsoring, there are still tickets left for sponsors. That would be the next big one. JOHN: And let’s hope that the Angular 2 is out and available and in full force there. Imagine if the contents hasn’t been decided yet for ng-conf. JOE: Oh no, we’re not doing the call for papers until February just for that exact purpose. Want to make sure the content is fresh so we’re only doing the call for papers two and a half months before the conference itself. CHUCK: And given the time horizon that you gave for ng2 beta, it makes a lot of sense because you’ll have a really good idea then as far as what’s coming down the pike with beta. WARD: I want to go back because I think we were joking a bit about how – Joe, you said that the APIs were going to be pretty stable now and we joked that we expect to have something to break any minute. But I think I was making – at least I was making [inaudible] light of it. I actually do grieved that this has the feel of something that is closed and closed to being –. There are some things that they, now that you’ve – people have been playing with it, they feel a little rough and they like to get those sanded smoothly before calling a beta and that is going to affect APIs but we’ve shapen up pretty well and I didn’t want it to suggest otherwise. JOHN: We were all offended by you, Ward. Completely offended. [Laughter] CHUCK: I think that it’s fair though that they're saying they're still not coming out of alpha but there are going to be some breaking changes somewhere. JOHN: Well, if you’ve ever delivered a product – a software product, it’s a good experience to go through because what does ‘closed’ mean, right? I agree with Ward – it is closed. There will be changes but me getting the beta doesn’t mean nothing will change at this point forever. At this point what I can foresee in alpha to beta is they're kind of nailing things down, rounding of the edges, sanding and smoothing it, putting on that semi-gloss on your trim – those king of things are happening and that stage usually needs a software making sure the API that you go to beta with is the one you think is the right API. So this is the last chance now, in my mind, to rename things that need to be renamed. Maybe break things up or combine things that should be combined and also create shorter syntax or things that might be – maybe take four lines of code. Now, maybe we can find a way to make it one line. [Crosstalk] WARD: Exactly. JOHN: That’s before [inaudible] things off. WARD: Exactly. Packaging – those things, you don’t even really discover it. You’ve got those things as needs until you get closer as close as they are now. And as John was saying, particularly when you try and document some of these things, you realize that you're telling people four or five steps to do something that shouldn’t take that long and just a little bit of something on the top of that would mean that you didn’t even have to talk about it. You leave that as an advanced topic. Those are the kinds of changes that I see coming and that trickles down into the kinds of practices that we recommend to people as the practices they should follow. Those things need to be done but it really has the feel of framework that is close and that I would actually enjoy using. CHUCK: I just want to pile on that a little bit. When you say that the API s a little fine, what that means to me and what I usually think of with alphas is that there’s less experimentation. So essentially, they're not building six different ways to do it and seeing which one really makes sense. When they go into beta, they pretty much [inaudible] on one and unless something major comes up, they're not going to change it JOHN: Right, like you're not going to see major new components pop or [crosstalk] one disappear which is worst. It’s more just figuring it out. For example, the router. One of the things that has been discussed is some of the API is a router while I feel like my experience of it has been very positive in using it and getting it to work. There’s places where it’s like, “Maybe when I’m training people on this, I’m [inaudible] through hackathons, this was hard for me to communicate. What if it was named this way or what if the API you called it in that way instead?” Those are the kind of things that I see possibly – hopefully changing before we go beta. CHUCK: Yeah, but it’s going to be a whole lot more of that and a whole lot less of, “Well, what if we try to do it this way instead?” JOHN: Yeah, well we don’t want data binding anymore. All these unidirectional data flow – let’s forget that. Universal JavaScript? Nah, we were wrong. You're not going to see that stuff. CHUCK: Right. [Chuckles] JOHN: At least I hope not. [Chuckles] JOE: Right. CHUCK: Yup. JOE: One of the things that you said, John, about – you just mentioned a line of ‘what takes four code – what’s rewriting four lines of code that you can write in one now?’ It actually reminded me of one of the other talks that I want to highly recommend and that was Better concepts, Less Code in Angular 2 by Victor Savkin and Tobias Bosch I think is his last name. Victor’s one of the – I think they're both on the core team but Victor is one of the deep core guys that’s writing the deep core pieces of Angular 2 and that particular talk was great talk. It was funny because there’s no humor, no jokes, no inspirational message, it was just really good education thing about Angular 2 and what they showed was building a tab component in Angular 2 and comparing it to the same thing in Angular 1. When he was done, he took a screenshot of just the code all raised in doubt in a tiny, tiny font to show you all the code but the Angular 2 component took half as many lines of code including templates to do the same exact component as Angular 1. It was a lot easier to reason about and give you more features. So that was really cool and it actually showed a lot of more deep features of Angular 2 rather than ‘here’s how to do a four loop’, ‘here’s how to do a binding’, ‘here’s how to do an event’. CHUCK: It sounds like they’ve really nailed down the lessons that they learned from Angular 1 as far as how they can make things better and more concise. JOHN: I think it’s going to get better, too, at this point because there’s still some things that could definitely use some sugar and they're aware of it. I think Brad again mentioned one or two in the Keynote part that I watched but I’m excited; it’d like to see that talk. That’s been what my thought was; I feel like I’m running less code in Angular 2 but I haven’t seen it yet so I’d love to see that side by side. JOE: Right. After seeing that particular talk, I got significantly more excited about Angular 2 even though I’ve done a fair amount of it, seeing that and that particular talk really excited me about Angular 2. And they talked – of course, the angular team is so good about being very considerate of the concerns of the enterprise – internationalization, testing, accessibility – they’ve always done a great job at that. Angular 2 is no different. I really do feel like Angular 2 is a really compelling product in the current landscape. WARD: So I’ll pile on and I’ll say this – there are days when I wish I didn’t know Angular 1 because it gets in the way of my seeing the way Angular 2 is set up because there – it seems to me that there are fewer concepts hanging around, there’s more consistency. I get stuck every once in a while in saying ‘but in Angular 1 we did it this way8’ and it interferes with my quickly grasping new stuff. So yeah, I think I know the emphasis that’ll [inaudible] Keynote which is all faster, faster, faster but I feel like they could make claims to this also being clearer and easier to write. JOHN: On the other side of the spectrum – and I appreciate this, thank you, you came to help out in Florida here with the hackathon with Angular 2 – I feel very strongly that the biggest problem people had at that hackathon was not Angular. Again, it was the ecosystem and it was, in some ways, typescript and ES6. There’s a lot of people out there who really seem to struggle with this – at least in the end, over a hundred people were at the hack night. They had a lot of problems with going to use that stuff and the things that they mentioned to me that they didn’t like was that syntax. They felt like ES5 was – they know it like the back of their hand. So this isn’t an Angular 2 thing but I feel like there are still mountains to climb because that’s a friction point that has to be solved for people. People are going to have to start learning how to use these things because even though you can use ES5 with Angular 2, I think it really boohoos people who start learning ES6 and TypeScript. WARD: Yeah, that’s true John and unfortunately that mountain is sitting right in front of the door. [Chuckles] JOHN: Yes. WARD: So you know that it’s right on the other side of that mountain. And anybody who wants to [inaudible] ES6 or TypeScript is an environment that’s facing this issue. As you say, it’s not an Angular problem but the community has got to rally around this and knock the top of this mountain because it’s a significant barrier to entry and it’s a shame because once you get passed it or once you get – once you lay down a little pattern that works, then life is pretty good, but getting over that hill is tough. CHUCK: So one thing – we briefly talked about Ionic and Ionic 2 coming out. I don’t know if I’ve heard much of the story with NativeScript. So I know that they claim that you can build native apps with NativeScript but how does Angular figure in if they're using actual native components or is it a hybrid app like Ionic? JOE: Well, I particularly don’t know very much because I missed that talk. I didn’t see either a few minutes of it and they were talking about it. I know they’ve been talking about the fact that the rendering engine for Angular 2 as they turn event the HTML is a component that can be pulled off when you can put an entirely different rendering engine. So if you're – rather than rendering out to HTML and using HTML templates, instead you could be rendering out to some native widgets, similar to the way that you can do iOS and stuff. But it personally don’t know that much about it. I miss that particular talk. I just know that that’s something that they’ve been always keeping in so that the core framework itself is separate-able from the rendering engine. CHUCK: Okay, well we’ll just chuck it up. It’s an episode we should do. JOE: Yeah, let’s do an episode and, well, we’ll have to watch that talk as preparation. JOHN: Well, the way they pitched NativeScript in general is – it’s in our homepage – it’s developed by iOS or Android or Windows phone app from a single code base. So the idea is you write your JavaScript and then it goes everywhere. How they get there, I’m not even sure but I believe they use the JavaScript grid on the Native devices. But yeah, that was one of those talks. I was actually surprised to see them in the lineup at this event but I’m really curious to see where Telerik takes this. CHUCK: Yup. JOE: Yeah. CHUCK: And just for your notice as well, Telerik is a sponsor of the show. JOHN: So we should say nice things? [Laughter] CHUCK: Say whatever you want. I’ve told all the sponsors we well say whatever we think. JOHN: Nah, and NativeScript – to be fair, I’ve got a lot of friends at Telerik. They’ve been asking me to look into it and quite frankly I have not had time to dive into that yet but I’m hearing in enough circles and that’s how I – when I’m not looking at something, if I hear it from enough people – the right people in the right places, that’s when I start to take on a closer look. I think that one’s getting enough talk now or it’d be worth doing a little dive and see where that goes. CHUCK: Yup, absolutely. Yes, and also in the interest of talking about the mobile space, we could also probably do an episode with the guys from Famous because I know that they also integrate [inaudible] if you would like to. JOHN: We should get them on and we should get Bert Colin there at [inaudible] to talk about NativeScript. CHUCK: Alright. JOE: Cool. Yeah, I like it. JOHN: So, is that the end? CHUCK: I don’t know. Is there anything else that we should talk about? JOE: There was one other thing that was actually a really big thing documentation-wise. They released a cheat sheet. I don’t know how that slipped through my mind but it was actually a really big piece of documentation. They’ve got this great Angular 2 cheat sheet. We only talked about it – I think in the Keynote, I mentioned it. So that’s really interesting is the fact – there’s a major release in the documentation sites. The Angular.io site has been updated quite a bit and so there’s this cheat sheet you can go get. And there’s one other thing that I thought was actually just as big of an announcement as the cheat sheet and that is there’s a new tutorial up. It’s a very big full-pledged tutorial written by none other than our own John Papa. JOHN: Aww. CHUCK: Awesome. WARD: Kudos John. JOE: Yeah, it’s a great tutorial. I’ve actually gone through portions of it myself and it’s actually a really good tutorial so if you’re interested in learning Angular 2, that is by far one of the best places to go and get it. And other training related news, Egghead.io on the same day as the conference released a full suite of Angular 2 clips. I think they, until this point, have five or six and now they’ve got 12 or something. That’s other big news. We’ll definitely put – John’s going to put a link to the cheat sheet in the show notes for anybody that wants to go get it. You can browse it on the docs site and grab it as well. JOHN: It’s a great cheat sheet. I’ve seen it in the past but this is really, really good. It’s a couple of pages; they made a poster of it. Just to give you an idea, it’s really – if you look at this, it almost looks like ‘wow, that’s all there is?’ There’s a lot of really good things there like what’s the component directive and where do you get it from? How do you import it and what does it do for you? What are the built in directives? I think it’s funny. The built-in directives section shows four built-in directives. How many do we have in Angular 1? WARD: Over 70. I counted. [Laughter] JOHN: I don’t have that many fingers. I can’t go that high. It’s really, really a good cheat sheet. I give kudos to Naomi for putting this together. And it’s listed at the top what version it is or because it’s alpha 44 right now but as that changes, they keep that up to date. JOE: Right. CHUCK: Good deal. Well, is that it? Is that everything? JOHN: That’s everything that I can think of. I probably missed one or two important things. JOE: I think one thing that would be really good is if anybody cares, I think in the show notes I’ll put a quick list of the talks that I think are particularly important to go and see for people who want to get up to date about Angular 2. There’s plenty of other great sessions that were in the conference that you should also check out, but I’ll try to get my cliff’s notes. You want to get up to date with Angular 2, watch these few talks here. WARD: So Joe, I think there was another area of announcement that we didn’t talk about today which was material design. I thought that – I had the impression, tell me if I’m right, that they did a release or they came really close to having something that’s a material design is now ready for production. So you recall where that stood? JOE: You were asking the guy who didn’t attend that talk. WARD: Gotcha. JOHN: On the website for material design, I just went to it quick because Google works like that. It’s latest release 1.0.0 RC 1. [Crosstalk] WARD: There was a real effort down the stretch here to get material shape dup so that we could all look at it and –. JOHN: It looks great. WARD: It looks great, yeah. JOHN: That was once in my guides that work where we’re playing with left and right today while they were [inaudible] stuff. They were up there asking if they can use it now. It’s like, “Let’s wait more than three minutes after it’s been announced,” but it looks pretty darn awesome what they’ve put together and they’ve got demos and they’ve got controls ad they’ve got animations. I don’t know why I’m talking like that but it’s all there. JOE: Yeah, I did have a conversation with Aaron Frost who is also at the conference, and he went up and – [inaudible] told me he went up and talked to the Angular material design guy because he’s been doing – working a lot recently with material design. One of the things that he said to me that he told him that I didn’t realize was an opinion and I myself haven’t played a lot with material design was [inaudible] to the guy and just thanked them because the API for material design is just so clean and intuitive and so much better. He said it was genius and brilliant the API that they came up with. Material design is just so well done so, again, if you haven’t been doing it you should be taking it out. WARD: I knew that – I’ve been following it and I know Thomas Burleson and that was a thing I was really looking forward to because – I’m sorry folks, I struggle with CSS Bootstrap. It just does not make a heck of a lot of sense to me and material design looked like it was going to lay down on a page in a way the made more sense to make. I’m looking forward to the fact that it’s so close to release. CHUCK: Yeah, that’s one thing – I’m a fan both ZURB Foundation and Twitter Bootstrap but there’s a lot there to keep track of. It looks like material design in the least – in some ways is simpler to keep in your head. Alright, why don’t we go ahead and get to some picks? If there’s anything we forgot and you're yelling at your phone or iPad, then let us know. I’ve actually set up a GitHub repository where you can open issues as topic recommendations and I will put a link to that here in the show notes. That way if you have ideas for shows, then you can go ahead and submit them there. Anyway, let’s do some picks. Joe, do you have some picks for us? JOE: You bet. My first pick is an easy one and that’s going to be Angular Connect. Now that I have actually attended the conference – I always hoped there was going to be a good conference; I can honestly say it was a great conference. They did a great job. So if you're in the Europe area or you can swing the flight to your boss or out of your own pocket but for next year, I highly recommend you attend next year. It was a great conference and it’s like six months off of ng-conf so there’s plenty of things there, news in the world of Angular to be seen at and [inaudible] a great educational to be had. So that’ll be my first pick. Then my second pick is going to be Denmark. I swung by Denmark on the weekend [chuckles] before I went at the conference. WARD: That just sounded funny. JOE: Yeah, didn’t it? I just want to visit some friends and I always loved going to Denmark. Everybody speaks English so it makes it particularly easy for me as a traveler to go up there and it’s clean and it’s a nice place and I really like Denmark so that’s my second pick. CHUCK: Alright, John what about you; what are your picks? JOHN: I’m going on for Star Wars: The New Force Awakens trailer came out earlier this week. If you know me at all, you know I love Star Wars. I love Disney, I love Marvel. It’s awesome. Anyway, I just bought my tickets for my family. I can’t believe how sold out they already are for premiering at December 18th. It’s crazy! JOE: I was so peeved that I didn’t get tickets to the Thursday night show. I will say, John, I have not watched the trailer but that’s on purpose. I don’t want to ruin any footage – any more footage that I already have at the first teaser. I haven’t seen anything become the first teaser. JOHN: They don’t – it’s funny, the trailer that came out on Monday night [inaudible] football. One of my giants got pummeled. [Laughter] Oh God, I wanted to cry. Anyway, while I was watching the trailer, it was funny. It wasn’t like a normal Star Wars trailer. It was a little more subdued and they really didn’t reveal a lot, I felt, but it was really, really entrancing. And even my kids were just like, “I cannot wait to see this.” They didn’t grow older like we did so that’s pretty telling. CHUCK: Yeah. JOE: Oh yeah. CHUCK: The thing is though that I watched the trailer – I know people don’t want to spoil any footage so I will be very non-specific, but there were some people I was expecting to be in the trailer who weren’t in the trailer. JOE: Yes. JOHN: Yeah, I heard that there was some stuff about that [crosstalk]. WARD: I’m really, really, really disappointed that Alec Guinness wasn’t in the trailer. [Laughter] JOHN: Oh my. And for those of you who don’t know that, that is Obi-Wan Kenobi. [Crosstalk] Otherwise known as Ward Bell. Sir Alec Guinness. WARD: The dear departed, long fondly remembered mostly for his roles in much better movies that Star Wars. JOE: Ohhh. CHUCK: Is that possible? Je: He was a very good actor, yeah, if you’ve watched anything else that he’s been, yes. CHUCK: No, I meant better movies than Star Wars? JOE: I just let that go because Ward – yeah, that’s Ward. [Laughter] WARD: If I see Star Wars some time this decade, it’ll be soon enough. [Laughter] CHUCK: Alright Ward, what are your picks? WARD: It ain’t Star Wars. No, I’m sure it’s going to be great for George Lucas and I’m glad for all the fans who were really looking forward to it but to me it’s like watching grass grow. So I’m sorry [chuckles] you got me in a roll there. I’m going to just have to let that go. Charles, what are your picks? CHUCK: Ma, I’ve got a few picks here. The first pick that I have – so I’m just going to pick books. I’ve been reading quite a few books. First off – before I get to that, I saw the funniest shirt the other day and I’m going to pick it as well. I’ll put a link to it in the show notes, but there was a shirt that I saw and it was a total troll for anyone who’s not a sci-fi person. What it was is it was a t-shirt and had a picture of a dalek from Doctor Who on it and then it says, “I love R2-D2 especially in Star Trek.” Anyway, you have to see it and be a fan of all three franchises and then it’s hilarious. So the books – I’ve been reading to my kids at night. I don’t do it every night because I’m not home every night. I’m home most nights but Thursdays and Tuesdays are usually busy. And so my father-in-law got my daughter a book last Christmas and we read that to the kids. It’s a historical fiction and it’s about thanksgiving and I figured this is a good time to talk about it. I will put it out there because I know that he’s a political commentator that a lot of people don’t like. It’s by Rush Limbaugh, however this is purely historical fiction. They travel back in time, they go see Plymouth colony, they get to experience all the stuff that the pilgrims went through on the Mayflower and then in the colony. It’s at the level of kids so I’m going to pick it because I really enjoyed reading it to my kids and I thought it was really interesting to see what it was about. So that was – it’s called Rush Revere and the Brave Pilgrims. Another book that I’ve been reading to them is the Magician’s Nephew by C.S. Lewis. That is the first chronologically – the first book in the Narnia series. It’s a prequel to the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I love those books; they’re terrific. And those are also more or less at the level of the kids. The language or the words they use is sometimes are a little bit archaic so I do have to explain what this word means or that word means but they’ve really been enjoying it and we’re pretty much done with that book as well so then we’ll be moving on to The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. JOHN: Yeah, and if you do read those books I do recommend you look up what the proper order of those is because I think that was actually the originally – when they published it that was the 6th or 7th book [inaudible] book. Yeah, but that was supposed to be the first one isn’t it? CHUCK: Yeah, chronologically in the story order so it happens before The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe so it was a prequel. But yeah, he wrote The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and then he wrote Prince Caspian, The Dawn Treader, The Silver Chair. And then I’m not sure of the order on The Horse and His Boy or The Magician’s Nephew but he wrote one of those and then the other, and then he wrote The Last battle is the final book and that one was the last one he wrote. Anyway, terrific books. So you can read them in the order he wrote them or you can read them in the order that they take place in which puts The Horse and His Boy happens after The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe but before Prince Caspian. Anyway, the books that I have, they're actually in that order. They’re in story order instead of publication order. But I know that you can get them where they're numbered the other way so whichever way you want to go. So last book is a financial book. It was recommended to me by John Sonmez whom I talk to every week on the Entreprogrammer’s podcast. He recommended this book; it’s called MONEY Master the Game by Tony Robins. It’s an investing book and it’s really terrific. It gives you a lot of information that you need to prepare for the future and be ready for retirement or whatever else you need to prepare for and to have the lifestyle and income that you want. Anyway, those are my picks. We’ll go on and wrap up the show. Thanks for coming guys and thanks for Joe for calling in in the middle of the night. JOE: Yeah, you bet. No problem. It was a fun show to have and it was a fun show to attend as well. I definitely had a big interest in promoting the conference. I had a great time attending, speaking, doing a little bit of organizational – tiny bit of organizational help. Obviously nothing compared to the actual organizers but it was a great show and certainly an awesome community to be part of. CHUCK: Alright, well tell Pete thanks and we’ll wrap up and catch everyone next week.[Hosting and bandwidth provided by The Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net]**[Bandwidth for this segment is provided by Cache Fly, the world’s fastest CDN. 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