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MAS 011 Isaac Schlueter: My Angular Story


MAS 011 Isaac Schlueter: My Angular Story

On today's episode of My Angular Story, Charles Max Wood interviews Isaac Schlueter. Aside from working in NPM, Inc. and Node.js, Isaac did a lot of JavaScript. He was on the UI team in Yahoo and made websites for other small companies. Tune in to learn about how he started with programming and what he currently enjoys doing!

Taking the Programming Path

In Isaac's childhood days, his dad brought home an IBM computer from his office. He went to the library and got books on programming. He began to type the program from the book into the computer and played games.  He initially had fun but soon he got bored with it.

When he reached high school, he realized that he could program his graphing calculator to provide the answer directly. He once got into trouble in his physics class when he aced one quiz without showing his solutions on his paper. Thankfully, he got out of it by explaining to his teacher how he did it. He soon moved to California, got a job, and found his way to the web.

Engaging into JavaScript

In San Diego, California, he landed on to a job in a software company where he did text support. He wanted to go to grad school but didn't have enough money to do so. So, he did some research on the internet and studied. While doing so, he stumbled upon blogs that had a deep discussion on topics like CSS and PHP. He then got promoted to a web development role in the company where he was working.

“They're not an amazing company; they are an amazing school. If you're an engineer, and it's early on in your career, go work at Yahoo…You'll learn a lot.” – Isaac Schlueter

In 2006, he got recruited to a job at Yahoo. That's where he fell in love with JavaScript and with Dash. He considers his experience at Yahoo as a post-grad study, as he learned so many things in programming while working there.

What Attracted Him to JavaScript

What made Mike really get into JavaScript was the language's inevitability. He's more fascinated with languages where he could easily get things done rather than those that seek perfection. Taking Haskell for instance, the language is very beautiful and compelling, but it's not as successful, in terms of popularity, as other inferior languages in the software development history.

With JavaScript, he had a similar experience with Dash. Whenever a new shell comes up such as ZSH, it has Bash every time he logged into a machine. There has been compiled to JS languages that are pre-day copy scripts. He doesn't mind whether JavaScript is a bad language as long as he gets his task done with it.

To hear about MAS 011 Isaac Schlueter: My Angular Story, download and listen to the entire episode.

Get Connected

Isaac would love to hear from you! Visit him through the links below. Don't forget to let Isaac know you heard about him on Devchat.tv's Adventures in Angular My Angular Story!

Isaac's Twitter

NPM's Twitter

NPM's blog

NPM website

Picks:

Isaac: Westworld, The Imperial Radch Trilogy, and Story of Your Life by Ted Chiang

Charles: Sphero BB8 Droid and Arcanum Unbounded by Brandon Sanderson

This episode is sponsored by

comments powered by Disqus

TRANSCRIPT

AiA 011 Isaac Schlueter

Transcript

[0:00] Hey everybody and welcome to another meijs story this week we have Isaac scooter from.

Npm Isaac you want to say hello hello so people probably know you from npm and your work on node js are there other things that people would.

Recognize your for before we get started.

I’m truly nothing else of people would recognize me for I did a bunch of JavaScript before coming to note worked on while you are in a bunch of stuff at Yahoo,

song why you i-team very briefly,

what else made a bunch of web sites for Yahoo and a couple of other slightly smaller companies on Twitter.

[0:52] Are you looking to expand your skills mobile development have an idea for the next Angry Birds app.

Then you need to check out I was her milk off produced by the same team that brings you your favorite. TV podcasts like Ruby Rose.

Join us for two days are jam-packed fun and learning stream2u Live May 17th and 18th go check it out at iOS remote,.com.

[1:20] Well let’s go ahead and start asking the questions I sent you the questions ahead of time and I’ve done a couple of these already so hopefully people are pretty used to the format and we’ll just will get rolling the first question,

into programming how did you get started programming so we always had and was growing up in computers in the home and ran his own,

12 company known as Andy call the startup but at the time it was just you know a company so we usually had like some hand-me-down IBM computer from his office and we go to the library,

get these books and then you type the program out of the book into the computer and play like a really you know crappy version of bowling or something with ASCII text,

and so that was that was kind of fun but it’s going well this is,

you know that exciting really it’s like a long boring slow and then I was kind of cool that you like change stuff and make the program break an interesting ways but it wasn’t talking to high school,

and you’re using graphing calculators in physics and math classes,

yeah I plan on going into like something something physics math something or other,

when I got into the class when using the graphing calculators I realized I could I could like instead of studying and having to actually learn this stuff I can just program it into my calculator is like you don’t actual program so I’d be like a text to be some,

something where you have your given three variables and find the 4th one or whatever in some equation,

I wrote a little program so you can plug in the three that you had it would just spit out the answer.

[2:52] And my remember vividly wants my physics teacher just like,

very intimidating Russian woman and.

Yeah shame I got a hundred percent on this one quiz that we got it with showing zero work right I just wrote the answers down it was like the worst job of cheating that anybody never done like to try to make it look like I wasn’t cheating but I was like I wrote the program,

there was no there was instead of a great on the test there was just like and see me,

Jesus I wonder what I was actually my first thing was thinking I was like.

Go cash that I get like zero on this because my prayer was wrong and I thought it was a bug or something.

She was like she was obviously like very suspicious like how do you get all the answers and I just talked him into my calculator like shit show me.

Should I maybe had light on but the test answers in my eyes just a text to calculator whatever.

Which of the program it was like oh oh oh oh well you’re okay so yeah it’s like okay well.

You can use this but don’t share with anybody and gave me gave me the hundred on the A Plus on that test and.

[4:15] The funny thing was I already shared it with a bunch of people in my class and in other classes and I realized I was extremely dirty and and socially awkward and stuff and I realize like I could get like.

Yeah I could like make people like me by writing done for programs maybe this could be you like a lifestyle choice.

[4:38] And I was coming up there I went to school for CS physics and now and moved out to California and got some,

not very good jobs in on my way to the web it’s really interesting and yes I mean,

it’s it’s interesting cuz I don’t know it reminds me a little bit of some of the things that I did because when I was in junior high school I had a TI-85 calculator and I was doing a lot of the same things.

You know a lot of people go well you know I didn’t I didn’t have that opportunity when I was in junior high school so I can’t become a programmer and for me it’s like well,

if a junior high or high school student can figure this out then,

you know you can be cut out to be a programmer to you don’t have to start early you just have to start yeah I think,

I think the fascination with getting started really early in life I mean that your brain is a little more plastic earlier on and I think it’s easier to get started younger,

but it does require a certain amount of you know it was right like I had computer seemed accessible to me because I had a very,

Camilo and computer is always in the home is like a thing that you could just sort of mess around with an n,

an experiment with an I think a lot of bed like let’s get kids in the programming but making programming accessible is,

actually sort of that sort of counterproductive sometimes because the inaccessibility of it the like you’re not supposed to be doing this like you always felt like I was getting away with something when I like.

[6:12] You know figured out a new way to make the computer do a new thing and it was not accessible it was it was. It was like it was like three Windows IBM computer error,

and the program that we had a root string limited there’s like floppy disk to some programs had like two or three floppy does the enemy swapping between to do different things.

[6:32] But it is it did require that I had you know.

Save a Life and a decent enough high school that had a physics class and,

get a TI-82 calculator or 86 at some point line of calculators graphing calculators like they haven’t actually progressed that much.

They’re like.

I know they’re there in an amount of computer that you probably find them like the average guy like Nike shoe for kids like it’s it’s totally laughable how limited those machines were by today’s standards.

But yeah I think that every kid should have a little,

basically indestructible Computing device that they can like mess around with in just her to get over that initial hurdle of thing this is Magic,

okay well this is just a complicated toaster and I can figure out what all the buttons do when there’s just a lot more buttons than the average toaster,

I think it’s actually lunch if that I need adults like a lot of adults,

still think that there are gremlins in the machine that like like them or dislike them or get angry and it’s like it’s just,

the toaster if you never get into programming and never become like a computer scientist I feel like that sort of the big paradigm shift I’m just seeing a computer is like a,

staying rather than a box of magic.

Is really what makes it accessible it’s not like having a great programming language you like should we be teaching kids Ruby or python or Java Script like whatever like to some assembly will figure it out like.

[8:12] It’s just they do have that just have access and have a lot of free time to that’s around.

[8:17] Yeah I completely agree I’m going to go on to the next question the next question is headed to JavaScript so I.

[8:27] I went to school thinking that I would do more like hardware and Engineering like actual engineering not what we suffer developers Call engineering stuff.

The physics of an in like solid state design and and nanotechnology and just kind of like where.

[8:46] Where Hardware was going in robotics are going was much more fascinating to me at the time and I when I was about 20 years old and I assumed that moving across the country and it would be easy to just get a job and then I can.

No go back to school to get my Master’s Degree and get a masturbating degree and then like actually pursue you know what Hardware design and I kind of stuff.

What I found was I moved out to California and as we were driving across the country the first.com Bubble Burst so there were not a.

Auto jobs to get end up doing tech support as this little software company in San Diego.

And.

I didn’t actually have enough money to go to grad school and I also didn’t have enough like stuff to mess around and actually learned I mean you can’t like.

You can’t just like in your free time on a limited budget.

Do fun hacking experiments with microprocessors like you know and and stuff there’s a lot of very low and stuff that you can get a mess around outside just like Lauren Hardware,

but I didn’t have access to one direction to a college anymore.

So what I did was I just sort of was like well what.

Internet is a thing I have a computer is not a great one but it’s like enough that I can load web pages and it has a text editor.

[10:22] So while I was while I was working at the summer company I was started learning like I did some everything it was only like C and C++.

And I.

[10:38] Also I saw that there was a sort of you know web Revolution happening in the early 2003 were like there were these.

[10:47] Interesting people having deep thoughts and,

reading hot takes on their blogs about which were not on there just unlike individual websites that you had to like you actually register domain for and stuff we were talking about CSS and p.m.

I kind of like you don’t want to talk about cool dirty stuff like I want to have friends on the internet how do I become one of those people pleaser to set my mind to that.

Working my way into a job at the software company where I was doing managing our website and all of her documentation and writing. Writing help box and so I kind of graduated from export into,

into the certain Knowledge Management web development role and.

[11:35] From there I just yeah I just heard very aggressively trying to learn all that I could end up getting.

Recruited to a job at Yahoo in 2006 and.

Working at job working at Yahoo I kind of think of Yahoo as my my post grad work like they’re not,

amazing company they are an amazing school I guess you’re an engineer and you’re early in your early on in your career like go go work at Yahoo like just don’t worry that it’s not the coolest in the world.

You learn a lot there if they invest or at least it did in 2006 and 2010,

invest a lot of engineering Talent answering skills and you make a lot of connections and learn a lot of stuff and just be able to operate a scale it like very very few companies can do I think probably working baseball her Google or Microsoft her all kind of similar.

[12:30] And I think is really wrong in your career it’s it’s way better to be in that sort of the barn with that sort of structure and that’s really worried.

[12:41] Fell in love with JavaScript in with batch I made the switch Whole Hog from you know they’ll always working on a Windows machine to pretty much always in some kind of units environment.

And.

[12:57] Little lies in a little bit well-documented ways I don’t know Microsoft on the bus when does this fine but I like the idea.

[13:12] And yeah I got increasingly frustrated I wrote this I worked on this project where we had a template template in system that had to have to pre,

pre compiled the front and template in the back end.

And then once it was delivered to the front and it had to be able to update dynamically based on Ajax calls or whatever this is all like you know we were.

Nowadays people have things like reactive you Jason and Amber and angular and all the rest polymer or what-have-you be like.

Forget like we’re rubbing sticks together. That I mean it was not something that was done it was just like is it an entire single page app which by the way.

80% of your users can’t access at all or.

Is it entirely server-side driven and then anybody on a slow network connection has a really terrible experience so it’s like that didn’t seem satisfied to me so I wanted to like I wanted to have one template.

That could be possible PSP and JavaScript and he can feed data informal. Oscar based on web service request and kind of update dynamically.

So I didn’t we we built this thing for a website that was actually pretty successful call Yahoo Buzz.

Didn’t last that long the business decisions made by you around that time where I think.

[14:42] They were not the best that was two years ago or 3 so it’s probably don’t you ever made them.

But be aware that I got from that was like gosh this sure is a pain in the ass too late.

How to make even though you know even the smallest like change to this car so I have to make in two places and I have this like line by line Port between JavaScript and Peach piano trying to like not using features of JavaScript at work,

that could be easily ported to pieces like extremely limiting and just this,

very difficult thing to maintain and I was like this is stupid JavaScript is a real programming language I should be able to do it on the server there’s,

there’s no reason to have to be switching back and forth like actually the time on the client.

It’s a fashion but I was like yeah that’s not happening so let’s just like accept reality and put put Javascript on the server and like that’s something we can actually control so I got involved with.

[15:51] A group called server JS which ended up rebranding is coming down.

Around the time of the spider monkey have been open source for quite a while that’s the jobs for Kenyan in Firefox Mozilla.

Webcor it was part of webkit which I think has been open source not that long before that after webkit got opens.

It was always a Google came out with their browser Chrome around that time and stay open source p8 which was this like.

The other time again by today’s standards like it was banging rocks together but.

At the time it was like way way more fancy of a VM done than any other door tension on the market I mean the other kind of go to thing for embedding was was rhino.

Yep on the GM V8 actually I’ll perform well.

Everything out performed right I like reading the code in the telling a person answer kind of out right that’s probably not accurate.

[17:06] Butter.

Yeah it was really really impressive it started like it said it knew a really a new standard and you seem very quickly.

Spider monkeys started a lot of the same height of Innovations to keep ketchup J escort.

Same kind of thing and then Microsoft started coming out with better jobs for benches really kicked off of new wave of like yes just enough to actually do real stuff in it.

So I started playing with how do you know how to embed V8 in something and I wanted I wanted something that was as easy as PHP but in JavaScript.

[17:45] That led me to project called K7 which is also then he’ll learn about Norwall which was her to be Rhino was a rhino based server-side Jazz play for.

Get some stuff with. It’s what a mess around it and I got involved with a group and had a bunch of.

Discussion we were talking about like you know.

[18:12] Probably less than 2000 actual human beings in all of it at this point in her in a serious way and it came out so I gave us was like,

I tried it I downloaded it and it didn’t build on a Mac so I figured I was broken it would never go anywhere that was region like zero. Zero. 2 +,

you should try to get it built on a Mac now so I when I downloaded it in like version 0.06.

It worked and I was like I read the docks like okay this is this is actually better so I started saying right so I’m going to build my my service ijs web platform on top of this note thing.

There’s about a dozen people on the on the Note as mailing list.

And so I set about trying to like the model system into note we got a what is still actually very.

Pretty close there’s been a lot of limitations and a few little tweaks here and there with the model letting pounds but like the core bit of what is a node module hasn’t changed that much from like this 0.1 days.

Extremely,

interesting to see just how resilient hope what a good design. That actually really was I’m not taking credit for this is,

the design came mostly from Chris Cole and Kevin dangle from the server DayZ group.

[19:44] Hi, jsgroup gas was actually we use it now to be like synonymous with them out over the notes I’ll know some but like at the time, just imagine itself as a.

Body that would produce specifications for all server-side Jazz platforms plural.

With the assumption that like you know we would specify what the file system a guy is and then it could be implemented using right now or using no door using V8 or using whatever else,

I didn’t write and then also you know you could also run a red light.

I have the same don’t know if they still do they had some like new platform for making extensions to Firefox the Name Escapes me at the moment.

And so that was also trying to you know England the same like specifications for stuff and I think coming from the job was community and people who have been around the process of how you build web browser,

and how you get things into the Dome specification that made a lot of sense right but like we’re developing a server-side platform starting first principles it makes no sense at all.

So it was it it got very difficult to get anything done in that group and without kind of the older woman weight of their already being an internet and already being multiple computers like,

one of the more popular so we can just throw them all away and no dry quickly was like well this is the one with like a model system that works and it’s really fast at startup.

[21:22] The others are using Rhino and so they take like 3 seconds to even start your program running in trouble so.

So that really sort of coal last that that’s our became the center of your service I guess very quickly and then come and Jas just came to be though,

the model system which is really the only thing that node ended up taking from the the, JazzFest vacations everything else was either too like depended upon synchronous IO or to divorce from the.

Naming conventions of 06 which most of the early know people had a very strong preference for like I think a lot of.

Ryan dolls.

Aesthetic is still very baked into Note 2 as some of the fact that we have the fact that II D and reader is NOT capitalized as like yeah that’s because this is call is we are all one word and like.

[22:19] Read file that is capitalized because that’s not actually a system calling like your kind of expected it’s really presume that this is the world that you working right your systems programmer.

[22:30] Which post office quarters are not in at arguably kind of a downside but it what it did was it attracted a lot of those system programmers out of.

Other languages out of using your way from using Ruby or Java for these kinds of things because it was closer to kind of the sea lingo that they know.

I think God in a lot of them still this.

Rational or irrational despite JavaScript in there probably going to the reasons to not use trust is probably a better.

A lot of systems programming but if you know if you can have the luxury of manage memory like yeah just a perfectly fine language in nodes a pretty good imitation of JavaScript Missouri.

[23:15] I probably being overly modest it’s very good it’s not just pretty good it’s actually.

[23:22] Probably the best Lake true to the spirit of what JavaScript is and also true to the spirit of like what you want to do answer,

so with it’s like a hundred or so people sharing stuff on a mailing list it very quickly got very difficult to like actually use anybody else’s code and to know what worked and which versions of note to their changes like left and right.

So I wrote a package manager to basically just script all the things that I was doing with somebody would share,

I’m on the mailing list in a download from this kid repo and then run back and then copy this thing over and in this place and make sure you have this version of this dependency in the right place then as it’s like alright was just have like a package file that.

Does what to do and then a script that reads a filing does the right thing and I was kind of them,

the birth of npm and yes I sent a bunch of pull request to add package. Json files to various people repositories on get up and before I knew it then.

So we go to registry so that people can publish directly into it instead of pulling stuff down from get up cuz I was kind of.

That made it more challenging to know what was available having a registry meant that you can just heard of it it would know where to find everything right didn’t have to like now.

Model names back to again repo stop just for me too because it’s really interesting and telling a lot of people they look at,

you know some of the things that you’ve done within p.m. or some of the other systems out there in there just like you know I just don’t know how you could have ever built in npm but npm started out as a series of scripts that used to make.

[25:02] Packages manageable and that was it and then there was kind of an afterthought sure be nice to have a list of these and and and I find that a lot of the software projects especially an open source and Worthy.

They kind of grow out of these things and I want to just call this out you know if you’ve got something that you think will be useful that you want to pull together I mean.

Isaac started with like the simplest thing it’s like run make it hope all from getting up I mean it was like a couple of different,

basic things and then that kind of grew into okay now we need to register it would be really nice if we could do dependency-management I would be really nice we could do these other things and those things kind of got built it into him as you went.

Yeah.

The first version of like the registry such as it was was a repository I had called and p.m. data which.

The idea was in order to publish your package you and you would send a pull request to this and data repo in and it seems to be working OK for Homebrew right you like,

you know that’s a that’s a process that people know what is a pull request I mean emailing me a patch because there were not yet pull requests on get up.

[26:21] So

Yeah but I also was feeling like you know there’s this is going to be a problem I’d I come from Yahoo and and one of the things that.

Add Yahoo that was that made it really enjoyable to create software there was a had the system called lions and then there was another.

Separate tool called a disk tools and basically what you would do if you would run wants to create to create a package.

[26:49] And then you run this a disk tool to publish it up to the deserters and.

My the thing that’s great about that is that there’s no,

there’s no single point of friction right so you don’t have like a couple of people were like well in order to publish a new person it has to be in order to create a new model then you have to like get sign off.

Lb elite team of Fame managers right there straight also that like there are actually benefits of having a couple system because.

You know there’s no there’s no bad models in pair right but the flip side as there’s very few good models and pear like.

It’s it’s sort of that on the vine because without that ability to explode it’s very difficult to grow I think Homebrew.

Who is a little bit of an interesting case just because they have.

[27:49] You know that they have solved this problem with a with a couple of people but also with a huge number of people’s her to swing Hammer to make that happen maybe she should look at things if you look at life,

white w,

are there certain system-level Pike and managers I think they are the the requirements that things have a little bit more like.

Predictability to them and a little bit more orders then it’s much better it’s a it’s a bigger win but when you’re talking about a programming level of programming language level package manager like.

Leasing at stop somebody from publishing something ends up just being friends of just sorta slowing down the whole Community from growing.

So the goal was to get something where people could publish and manage ownership of their packages of their package things without without me being involved like I really did not want to get involved almost out her.

Right yeah I’m in that make sense,

I mean rubygems is the system that I’m more familiar with just cuz I had dealt with it for longer have lately been getting much more to JavaScript in using in p.m. and yeah just the fact that I can.

Now push publish you know whenever I need to and not have to wait for Isaac to get around to accepting my pull request or.

You know you know apply my patch to the register yeah that makes a ton of sense so.

[29:21] So yeah so the question was how did you get into JavaScript and we kind of got that introduction to wear in p.m. came from which was fascinating so I didn’t stop you but you know what was it about JavaScript that made you go out I want to be about there.

I think it was just sort of the the inevitability of the language right like I’m always kind of been a bigger fan of like get stuff done languages rather than.

Seek Perfection languages.

I think there’s a place for both of them and I don’t want to try and make like a you not judgemental like normative thing here but like.

Buick of language like what council has a very beautiful language it’s it has a very sort of like.

Interesting and compelling.

Assess to it and everything about it is sort of chasing that sort of perfection but like.

On the other hand if you look at the way which is out of the most successful in in the history of,

soccer development like they’re not that you got see which is basically just like will this is what a process your can do we need to scripting language so we don’t have to write a summary by hand there’s a not very good language that lets you do that.

Bike and it’s remarkably remarkably.

[30:44] Popular it’s been the most popular programming language by forever it’s the thing that runs on every computer everywhere.

Now that being said it’s all so hideously unsafe it’s very difficult to read it kind of impenetrable got a lot of like a little weird education and I’m very excited about.

Because I think it’s what.

What’s up you know what’s C++ should have been it’s it’s actually like a see that’s a little bit better sit. Sorry.

Dart darts a whole different thing thank you yeah so rust is.

It’s also feels like getting stuff done like it has an ideal like it has a certain sense of like a memory should be owned and everything should be cleaned up in and what then there’s like,

Total Truck tours like out you need to go in that room we’re not really supposed to but like there’s a way you can do it if you like,

just put the word unsafe so at least you know that you’re doing something it’s probably unwise and.

With JavaScript in with an actually I had a similar sort of experience with Bashur like every time a new cool shell comes out there when it’s like a CSA your fish or whatever kind of like well.

It’s cool but like every time I log into a machine it’s got bash like why don’t I just get really go to this one you know or what.

Is Javascript there parabens or like compile today as languages that predate coffeescript look up it’s probably one of the more popular of them.

[32:22] Rotella considered using them it’s kind of like yeah that’s cool I like this feature would be nice if it was in jayess but like I need this webpage to load.

On these browsers and I can get it done in JavaScript so like I said it’s bad language I don’t care.

Is it to English the spoken language it’s very much and long girl but like,

there’s no there’s no like Central Committee that decides which which words in English or valid words and so we do like really interesting creative things with it,

turning nouns and verbs in the you know all kinds of other like weird things at like.

The older generation gets the kind of like poo poo and turn their nose up at the younger generation this uses like it’s just a normal part of the language and it involves very quickly.

Will still being extremely popular extremely intelligible and in a lot of places and I think.

Yeah what is talking like it is certain exactly because humans.

We have an actual thing we want to do right like nobody’s going around speaking lotion on a day-to-day basis to communicate like they’re speaking because they want to enjoy the process of speaking.

But that’s not really a language as a hobby and I sort of feel.

Similarly about high school about a lot of languages that are in a lot of lists a lot of things are like really more focus on the ideological Purity rather than or or like sort of.

[33:53] Having an effect on your brain rather than just like yeah whatever I just want this.

Thing to show this button and when these are clicks on and I want to make this entry into database Lake get out of my way just let me do that.

Not that sort of mine that I think lends itself well to an uglier languages like like that was getting paid in cash and see.

Yeah that makes sense,

I kind of want to I know where we’re going a little bit longer than I kind of set aside for this but I do want to talk a little bit more cuz the next question is what have you done the jobs people would recognize and all that,

I’m a little bit curious though if if you’re willing to go into it a little bit with npm and.

The node ecosystem and one of the things that I thought was very interesting that you have done.

Creating npm ink and you know sort of.

How do I say this cuz people have this funny idea about commercializing open source and it feels like that’s kind of wearing p.m. when I mean it’s still free if you want to just use it the way you stay.

But now there’s this company behind it and you’re doing all of these things that allow people to use it in different ways if they’re willing to pay for those features and some Curious like what what made you decide to make that decision and what kind of.

Feedback of you gotten good and bad regarding that that’s a really good question I think you know it.

[35:30] We can hang our hat on a lot of like these ideas that like a particular social organization is good or bad like.

By nature of the organizational structure rather than like the people involved in the situation whatever it like,

people say things all the time about this about like whether it’s like a religion or a church or you know I’m into religion but not organized religion in like wow okay.

And I mean I know everybody says things like that thing and what they mean is totally valid whatever I’m not trying to like,

trying to get email but like in an open-source we’re no different.

A foundation is is morally good and a company is morally suspect.

[36:22] Rice think that humans are morally good and humans are also at the same time and very complicated way is morally suspect and it’s it’s,

right and reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt but also the kind of trust but verify.

Bad behavior happens at you know that there are there are bad foundations and there are good companies and vice versa.

And so when I went to set about trying to figure out like what do we do about the registry was running for about four years on the project was just my personal side project on nights and weekends the the register awning on a donated infrastructure.

And it got to the point where.

Basically I was faced with the decision was like look you can either take this thing somewhere else you can start paying us for it,

and here’s how much it costs and so I was like oh okay well so I got to figure out how to pay this new bill and it’s.

The company that was running it it was originally Iris couch they got purchased by no Jitsu like.

That’s a fine thing to to put the somebody in and you know they gave me plenty of time to figure it out as I looked around it and also there’s been a bunch of outages in downtime which they were sort of like they were struggling to figure out how to keep the registration wanted.

How to get down,

and at the same time they’re like what this is actually going to cost a lot of money and we can’t monetize it so like what are you doing here charge for this thing or take it somewhere else basically. You don’t think got another way to pay the bills.

[38:02] So I am I look at my options I was working at joint on running the project at the time just running it moved on to be a professional hipster and.

We can run it inside of joint has like a joint project but it wasn’t really like.

[38:23] Was it really in.

It wasn’t any real Synergy with what joint was doing and handing it over my baby seem like you know to this company that had its own.

Set up a large thing that was doing this didn’t feel right.

I could have created a foundation for it though you know call the MPN foundations before the nude Foundation existed or create a stand-alone XT like a company and.

The situation was not really a good fit for what a foundation is good for foundations have basically the way Foundation works if you get a bunch of companies to put a bunch of money in a pile and then that money is.

Or whatever the purpose the foundation is and when the money is gone,

you go back to those companies in you say okay well we did the same that you want to spend money on give us more and so every year you’re like basically in a constant state of fundraising if your costs are relatively stable.

And it’s totally fine or if there is your concert growing with the along with the the benefit to the number of pennies,

and that’s totally fine I think it makes a lot of sense for the donation I think a note note ink would not actually be as good a fit because then that’s.

[39:46] Okay how do you even monetize a server-side platform like that without being evil and be why would I be in put money into no tank why wouldn’t they just buy that company or you know.

[40:00] It also like that company doesn’t really need to grow that much like they’re their concert at least it’s okay they need to increase the number of developers working on it there is increasing like legal fees for IP protection whatever whatever but that’s pretty straightforward and very easy to predict.

When you’re talking about a service that you’re running on the other hand and especially service that you’re running where the growth of that service is exponential.

They’re the only way that you can possibly keep up with paying for that is to somehow monetize it because if you can tie the etiquette on the revenue.

True that exponential Curve will know you have an external source of Revenue,

not something that you can very easily get somebody to invest it right that’s something that you can actually use to hire people to make it continue to grow and end the the interest are all aligned if the registry where to go down,

you disappear like this company disappears and true Ventures and Bessemer Venture partners are alike.

Very very invested making sure that doesn’t happen I depend on it they’re going to make it work.

[41:05] Whereas with Foundation like the member companies can’t stop hiring lawyers to protect their investment in protector or whatever but like,

individual contributors can just leave and that’s actually kind of the way it’s supposed to work right you can expect me to move on and New Blood to come in and so on.

[41:25] And this wasn’t just a matter of keeping me in p.m. open source project running really it was the service that everybody’s depending on that’s the much bigger part of it and.

Since I since we found a company in 2014.

[41:41] The paint products that we’ve added I think don’t really don’t infringe on the open-source value that we provide for the value of the open source community and the reason I say that is because as I said before.

I just kept using in PM the same way I always did and it works better actually people now people don’t realize that there’s a registry even.

Because it works where do you think is my computer so.

Anyway the best way to set up till like companies are not coming here anymore alright they’re not actually good or evil.

People can be good or evil but companies are motivated by Financial incentives and motivated by strategic incentives so.

Do you have a company that the only way that this company can stay in business is to.

What’s a poison the drinking water of an entire state or you know just to pick up or Mike,

build a pipeline of of toxic oil through a bunch of people and wake them that company will do that and if,

if the current like if the current people running that company are not evil enough to douche to like make peace with that kind of terrible action,

the company will find somebody else who is or they’ll just go out of business and some other company will come in and do the evil thing writes like,

yes you should be suspicious of Corporations you should look carefully it with her and send it with the same thing is also turn the other direction right like if you look it like like what if.

[43:19] What is Mozilla decided to start charging you know sending everybody uses Firefox of bill for using Firefox.

Were you know suing anybody who download something that was like,

morally birds like in violation of copyright or something like they would just go out of business cuz nobody would use a browser,

and so it’s not about being good or evil it’s not being smart or stupid and companies will tend to be smart and self-interested or they’ll cease to exist.

[43:47] So what we set up with mpm Inc is a situation we’re doing bad things to the open-source community.

What’s the weather going to evil doing bad things to the open source Community is stupid and will hurt the company’s Financial.

And not that it really comes down to like identifying a.

A strategic way that we can grow our Revenue in a way that doesn’t or kill the Golden Goose of our open source community.

It requires that we may be smart but it doesn’t require that we be on.

Unflinchingly good at all times right which is actually.

Like you should be good at all times you should definitely try to be very very moral I think that’s just like an important part of.

Be a good person but if you’re.

[44:38] If the good that you do in the world revolves around you never Being Greedy or selfish or you know having a nasty thought like kind of in trouble because we’re human beings and we will,

we will do bad things like we will do self-interested things it’s just sort of part of the package.

And so I’m sort of rambling I guess but the.

[45:04] I think that we have set up a situation with the npm registry we’re like doing right by our open source Community is is essential to the company survival and any company that would you know I need if we.

If we do if we’re extremely successful if we were we’d acquired by some larger software company is often happens like any company that buys us.

Is going to be buying us for some reason presumably and.

[45:31] They they won’t be able to continue to get that value unless they continue to do that you know do what I think is the is the morally right thing.

[45:40] That makes sense and I like the way that you explained it because yeah everybody acts according to the incentives that they’re given.

Mostly Ghostly.

[45:51] Mr. mostly but you know if they don’t act rationally according to those motivations then you don’t completely understand the motivations.

[46:02] Sure so setting up a company where those motivations are to serve the open-source community in the way that it does that makes a lot of sense.

Enemy I talk to investors who buy when we would raise for series a or RC around like we talked to a bunch of investors who clearly didn’t get it who are like you know.

Why don’t you just.

Yeah we’re sort of thinking of it as more of like a premium open-source product or think of it more as a saw her product and less as a service or Community or kind of social networking type of developer thing.

They’re not interested in investing in us because I can’t sell you a fancy your version of the npmc Ally,

Crystal licensing at because you’re just going to use some other thing like right after their book so from their point of view like this is not a model that makes sense to us we’re not going to the best and that’s great because.

The model that does make sense of them is not the kind of model that work in the situation with true and with that’s where I think they have they they both have very,

very clear view of like how to manage a developer focused community and developer tool they’re investing companies it automatic and twilio and like.

[47:24] That are extremely successful as an independent company and at the same time we’re able to do a fair amount of good for Developers.

[47:33] Yeah that makes sense I’m starting to run out of time so I’m going to ask my question and that is what are you working on now and in particular I’m curious like what’s coming for npm next year.

What’s coming for npm right next year we’re working right now.

We have some some pretty big announcements coming over then in the next couple of weeks,

police two months and we’re going to be talked about that a lot more I don’t want to I don’t want to scoop myself or else my head of marketing will be upset with me.

But I am I am basically.

CEO which in my case means basically cheap product manager at npm Inc,

so I’m writing a bunch of specs for new features for the npmc line and can website and.

What’s coming next is going to be we are going to continue to reduce friction for people who are using JavaScript today I think.

The big The Big Win For Us 120 what kind of limits also the company is.

We we fighting for people who are collaborating with modular jobs great-aunts and if you’re doing that inside of a company with proprietary code you’re probably pretty inclined to pay for it,

and to be able to use the same tools like that’s kind of what we don’t provide about you is.

Yes it are for the people who are using npm but not publishing with them p.m. if that makes sense.

[49:09] So if you’re just sort of consuming a bunch of models around like 5.9 million people were downloading packages from us and only like three hundred thousand of them are ever publishing anything or disturb account to do so.

So my goal is the Argo moving forward as a company write my strategy is let’s figure out ways to actually improve the lives of people who are just consuming modules and.

Provide access to them for future that they might be interested in paying for.

[49:41] You know other other kinds of things we can do to sort of make them in power them more and then also say well if you’re doing if you want this kind of empowerment and this kind of benefit with your private code that’s what you pay for it right to,

the principle still sits stays very much the same where we just sort of give things away to the open source community.

[50:00] And has both I like to look for both the good and the evil and where they where they where they agree that’s probably the right thing to do.

And so they let me know if interested and also give me.

So if we just give this these kinds of things away and these features away to all the people were doing stuff and open source that has two effects one it’s it’s nice like I like it there lies will be better I feel like I’m doing good in the world like during cancer anything but it’s,

it’s nothing and second thing is they’re more likely to want to use this on their private stuff too and then they’ll pay for that,

and I am making money so.

[50:46] That means that we can continue to grow and kind of stay ahead of the curve for RR usage because currently about 55% of all jobs for 2:10 p.m.

Currently about the numbers in the world use JavaScript so like that.

5.9 million sounds like a lot of people but it actually is just sort of in the mid-range of its of its growth curve we’re still a long way from saturation so what that means is my server bills are going to keep going up.

[51:17] So that means a revenue will hopefully also keep going up I mean that the company is growing it’s in a good spot.

But sort of what I’m working on now is figuring out the ways that.

That we can get more involved with more of the more the Jazz community and more of the development work though.

Make sense.

Hey there this is Charles Max when I just wanted to talk to you really briefly about freelance remote-com.

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Alright so the last thing is picks do you you’ve been on the show before so you know about pics.

What what things do you want to shout out that you’ve been enjoying lately I am going to.

I’m going to keep it very so I focused right now I don’t know if I mentioned this last time I was on the show I might have but the first thing is there is.

[52:52] Asylee first Westworld.

It’s it’s disturbing watch but I think it’s worth it it’s not just disturbing stuff for the purpose of titillation it’s an amazing amazing exploration of like.

Story and personhood and you know a lot of very deep things and it’s a very good like fair play mystery kind of story if you’re not into it I Are Stars 2000,

all the zombies.

[53:22] Second pic that I want to shout out about is a Trilogy of books called the Imperial rocks Trilogy starts with the ancillary Justice.

[53:34] Which is another just fascinating work of work of literature epic in scope and.

[53:44] Says a lot of very important and interesting things about humans and about what it means to be human and what it means to be a person and society and privilege.

And the third thing is a short story by Ted Chiang story of your life.

[54:05] It was recently made into a movie which I have not had a chance to see but I highly recommend reading the short story if the,

if a 10-hour TV show is too much for you especially with lots of blood and gore and nudity or if a.

Epic three novel work out of literary Geniuses is too too deep for you,

short stories probably got a two-hour read it’s really really awesome and very brain-bending and I hope that what I heard in the movie does it justice so I’m really looking for that.

Nice I’ve got a couple of my own that I’m going to shout out about the first one is last week was my birthday I’m 37 now I’m getting old Amy too nice.

[54:53] So my wife got me the Sphero BB 8.

Droid that you can with your phone and it’s fun to just drive around the office I work from home so it’s my home office it’s also fun to drive around stairs with my one-year-old she crawls after it.

Gets excited kinda funny I understand that you can also turn it on while you watch any of the Star Wars movies in it.

[55:21] Behaves differently I haven’t tried that yet but I’m looking forward to it,

so I’m going to pick that the second one is I become over the last few years a big fan of Brandon Sanderson who writes a whole bunch of fantasy novels and he has a series of short stories called or came founded.

And they take place in his cosmere which is kind of a.

Universe all on its own and his different fantasy series I’ll take place on different planets within the cosmere.

And anyway so he has this this concept in there people that can move between the different worlds and things like that,

all of his series kind of stand-alone so mistborn and a laundress and some of the other books that they’re all self-contained stories so you can read them without understanding the cosmere,

but this set of short stories fill in some of the holes,

you know some of the things that don’t get explained in-depth because it would interrupt the story too much and it it,

specifically draws a lot of these parallels within the cosmere and so it’s really interesting so if you’ve read mistborn then there’s a story of what happened to Kelsey early who was one of the main characters in this point after he dies,

does he kind of goes to this limbo cognitive world and then,

after most people just passed through there and then go on to the spiritual realm which is the afterlife but he.

[56:52] By the way to stay in the cognitive realm and so he has this impact on the rest of mistborn that you don’t realize is going on behind the scenes as you read mistborn it so it’s really interesting of course there are spoilers for some of these stories so.

There’s a short story that happens after a laundress as Major Spoilers the Celts your story has minor spoilers from this point not Major Spoilers but yeah I’m really enjoying them then so it’s kind of a nice way to see behind the scenes any explains,

why and how he built some of these worlds so it’s really fascinating that we do.

[57:27] So if people want to see what’s going on with npm ink or follow you on Twitter or anything like that what are they doing.

You can follow npmjs on Twitter you can follow izs on Twitter I mostly don’t write about Javascript on my on my Twitter feed I mostly write about other stuff.

[57:49] You can also follow our blog and blog. Npmjs. Org and you can also always go to npmjs.com which is our main website.

[58:00] I’ll be remiss if I didn’t mention that we have a Weekly Newsletter which is actually fantastic I always know it’s going to be in it and I’m still really excited to read it every week.

I am extremely reluctant to ever.

Be involved with any kind of newsletter because I feel like it’s just sort of more litter in my inbox but it is really really interesting and I look forward to it every week.

Shout out to the people here who are making that happen I’m a ruthless unsubscriber but I might have to check it out.

Alright well thank you for coming and thanks for sharing your story I think it was really interesting just kind of see how we got and p.m. and what some of the story is behind.

[58:45] We’re where we are now so thank you again bed with for this segment is provided by cash by the world’s fastest Indian.

The New York content fast with Gaslight visit cache fly.com to learn more.

[59:02] Music.

 

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