MAS 012 Mikeal Rogers: My Angular Story

Mikeal Rogers

On today's My Angular Story, Charles Max Wood interviews Mikeal Rogers from the Node.js project. Mikeal has appeared as guest in episodes 84 and 147 of DevChat.tv's JavaScript Jabber Show. Listen and learn about his fascinating journey in programming!

Inspired by Hackers

Mikeal wanted to be a hacker. He was around 12 or 13 years old when he got his first computer, which was made out of random parts.

At the beginning, he learned about assembly basic syntax. Eventually, he knew how to tweak codes from people. It was only when he learned about Pearl that he created an app from scratch.

Becoming a Pro

Mikeal's journey to becoming a real programmer started when he was 18 years old. He moved to Seattle that time, and worked for Host Pro. It eventually became one of the largest shared hosting companies.

“A lot of people are having these problems where you would go and talk to people and we all have a lot of the same stories. But, the direction that the language was going was the exact opposite of where we needed to go.” -Mikeal Rogers

He enjoyed working with Pearl but didn't find it enough to complete his job. He discovered Python out of his frustration. Mikeal eventually worked for Mozilla, where he got to use Python (platform) alongside JavaScript (browser).

Problems with Python

As he advanced in his career, however, Mikeal began having problems with Python. According to him, it lacked a good concurrency model besides other things. To his dismay, none of those problems were being addressed.

Download and listen to the entire episode about Mikeal Rogers. Mikeal has spent many years in the industry, and has encountered lots of challenges and other experiences that you too can learn from.

Get Connected

Tweet Mikeal @mikeal, and let him know you heard about him on My Angular Story. He would love to hear from you! Visit him through the links below.

Request for Commits Podcast



Mikeal: WebTorrent, Tools of Titans by Tim Ferris, Normal by Warren Ellis

Charles: find Charles in any conference for stickers (by Sticker Mule), poster size calendars at NeuYear, The 12-Week Year by Brian Moran


JSJ Episode with Feross about WebTorrent

This episode is sponsored by

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AiA 012 Mikeal Rogers


[0:05] Hey everybody and welcome to another meijs story this week we’re talking to Michael Rogers from the nodejs.

[0:12] Don’t you want to say.

[0:19] So I sent you a bunch of questions I will kind of work through those see what you’re up to see how you got into programming all that good stuff.

[0:28] So the first question is how did you get into programming was probably.

[0:37] Public 12/4/13 computer I’m kind of a simple random parts and really wanted to be a hacker actually I can think of.

I first learned assembly and it was mainly because I was getting music’s place where the people answered infusing and modifying them.

And I definitely like a lot of help from the community I’m just getting coming on board and,

and I don’t think I ever wrote a program from scratch I think I was only like learning this is really there’s very little there and then I just kind of,

different but the code that I got from people.

And then in the Darth Vader of the dark side of the web or something but you know it was it was the 90s.

Amino Microsoft dominated everything it was it was a really Bleak time coming into the office I think they’re probably going back to something like that,

know that I try and stay out of politics.

[1:45] But anyways so yeah I think I’m going to learn to see because you could do inline-assembly and you can just kind of do more with see the still ever really wrote a program from scratch until April,

and then with curly I didn’t scratch probably do you know Port mapping and things like that different stuff like that,

yeah that was that was sort of when I got into it,

but the kind of funny I’m trying to remember but I talked to you it was really in Pearl,

hey there this is Charles Max Wood I just wanted to talk to you really briefly about freelancer no, I’m putting on a conference for people who want to go freelance or who are freelance,

and bringing in some of the experts from the freelancer show to talk to you about how to find clients how to collect money how to build your business.

How to specialize and much much more so if you’re thinking about going freelance or you’re already freelance and want to hear from the experts on how to go,

become or grow your freelancing business.

Then by all means come check us out a freelancer milk come from when I got into the.

[2:59] Gotcha look kind of funny I’m trying to remember but I talked to you it was really in the pearl I’ve interviewed a few people but anyway.

Yeah a lot of people kind of came up through that and then yeah so how do you get from Pearl to JavaScript.

[3:13] That’s that’s a bit of a story so it was really fun,

but when I started to become more of a real programmer 118 company,

I’m saddled with like you know maintenance Burton company is.

The first company that I work during that time was a company called,

which merged with inter land and they became one of the largest kind of shared hosting companies were doing some pretty stuff at the time,


and we had a product that had a using the FreeBSD jail was essentially like a container or like a root on this virtual environment but it felt like a private server 2001,

and I was all just using you know it’s on top of the a different Beast DiCarlo,

but anyway yes I was really not hacking it for things that I had to maintain while I could go back and read code that I had before like a lot of people there,

out of my frustration with pearl like I wanted something very similar in terms of where it’s at in the stack and high-level,

syntactic like all of my problems at that time work syntax and so just had a much nicer send text to it.

[4:43] Enviropro python for quite a while I’m work at the password application Foundation,

Mossimo also reading my phone for quite a while but also as I was reading transcript as well so I was kind of doing both language and it was just a thing that I was using the browser.

[5:05] NFL time I started a lot of problems with python and none of them were syntactic they were all like the way that the BM in the language of structured and started to become pretty,

annoyed I think with with the way that I thought was being managed at the time because I was having these problems one of these problems like you would go and talk to people and we all have the same story send,

the direction that the language was going it was basically the exact opposite of what we needed,

I mean we were complaining about you know a lack of a good concurrency model and the fracturing of the ecosystem between different concurrency patterns like you can use twisted or you could use a sink or Caribbean you basically very tiny subset of those pearls,

and none of that was being addressed instead we were going to break the entire language so the prince could be a function.

That. Just been crazy to me and Andy no I mean Python 3,

came out before nodejs was invented and you know it’s still having problems being adopted right so but I was the only person I didn’t.

So I was doing a lot of stuff with this couch to my work it was like I said I knew JavaScript was using it as a running like a very weird kind of JavaScript that you would have muscle at that time we had a lot of features that were part of the kind of standard.

[6:45] And I’m sorry if I’ve had a lot of stuff in at the didn’t happen but it did land in the Missoula platform a lot of that kind of internal code,

was actually using it became really good friends with.

Postpartum knew about his conference.

And then you told me hey you know you really going to check out this this nodejs thing like this guy just gave this this talk here on it and it was crazy and people are really excited about it so this is called,

the week or week after it had been announced by Ryan at the conference.

[7:28] Can I pull it down and it was I mean compared to the day it was pretty bad actually but I.

[7:35] I decided to going to Tinker around with it and one thing that you did ask who sing I had anybody or an HP proxy yet and nobody had in the end.

Because it was so new and I knew a lot of everything in a proxy I’d actually spent like me almost 4 years,

on a nice tree proxy it was invented in sentences using like every crazy trick that you can use,

python to make things and end,

gather concurrency but all these tricks with your hdb to speed things up at the proxy where do all the stuff about a proxy,

and I sat down and wrote no proxy and it was,

Lake in less than a hundred lines I mean if you look at it today it looks gross compare doing now but,

remember running it and the first thing I noticed was like when I hit control see the process always stopped like I don’t know whoever in Python but.

[8:33] You Can’t Always Get a python process the stuff eventually at the pull up into the terminal window and do it kill that night because it’s just it’s impossible they’re all these crazy hacks and in terms of the library’s to try and maybe always be able to kill it but you,


every time I had control see it ended I can’t even describe how relaxing that works as a programmer to program really quickly and no dress,

an only was a significantly smaller I mean,

1039a code but I had in this in this long-term project was the faster,

and I hadn’t done any of the crazy HD hacks yeah there was just no it was just that much faster than python.

And so the time I sort of decided that I was,

just not going to write anymore the things that I was doing python we’re not very well suited for it and just had a lot more promise to it so I very quickly put in the basket.

So I’m curious because I mean I’ve written in OJs and I played around with the concurrency model some but it’s not like truth reading.

[9:49] It’s all internal threads right it doesn’t take advantage of multiple cores or is that changed so curious then if that’s the case then how did that really make a difference over what python did.

[10:00] So okay so you have two completely different can one one is improving multiple processors processing Construction.

No that will give you you know a pretty good performance pump if that is your bottle that for most people they never hit them,

mostprograms their their biggest problems are network-related,

like you’re you’re waiting you’re waiting on something on the network because I mean the amount of time that you wait for something over and network is orders of magnitude faster than any amount of instruction to going to take evenly,

and so what when you’re when you’re looking at how to do concurrency well like just concurrent network-programming you really need to think about two things one is that you need to be very good and efficient doing nothing,

so if you’re waiting for something to happen don’t use any resources to the time to clean up peanut like like you very quiet,

I have like a meditative State when you’re doing nothing it was like you need to figure out a way inside of the programming model that you can present the programmer is a really easy way for them to understand when is going to come back in the future,

so there’s a bunch of state that can change between when I ask for something in the networking when it comes back and so have you exposed to the programmer.

You’re a lot of ways to expose that’s the pro number that use a lot of different kind of programming and traction tried so there after school routines and then.

[11:33] That any duration on this idea of cover tunes,

I thought I’d cover teens I thought also had AAA sync model, Twisted it was really really,

complicated and very sort of a python class paste kinda look like Java interfaces and everything it was really kind of,

they didn’t have models it did that was never at work,

the weather was really bad at doing nothing like we was waiting for something it wasn’t very efficient was using your resources and also because the entire Community Health on top of things for the network,

because they’re showing it off in the thread you can use it most of the modules in the python ecosystem,

inside of twisted or inside of these discovery library is so you were really reading all of your own cook from scratch,

and one of the promises of nodejs Twisted oh well here’s a here’s that you know JavaScript has been around forever it has really fast the end of that thing could be there but there is an ecosystem the month yet,

really doesn’t exist and we we have a chance now that kind of create that he can sit then we can create it on top of these these patterns that are better for concurrent.

[12:42] Right so you’re not blocking I on gas and that’s the big win.

Exactly exactly and you know it engineered from the ground up with those considerations and actually,

happens to be a very good language for that,

the web and the browser is an invented model JavaScript also had to be good at doing nothing had to get good kind of waiting for an event to happen at being really efficient,

so it was a pretty good language for this type of model,

note to come back to kind of multi core programming yes sometimes you do want to use multi core is actually got beat up a lot,

in the first years of notice for not using people really in the time between new window just was released in 2009 and now this interesting happened we’re still have more of our computers are getting faster but the actual addressable compute space,

for an individual developer has gotten smaller larger so we have bigger machines but what developers program to now,

are you know those machines broken does broken into tiny doctor contain still have these really constrained environments in terms of how much CPU and memory to take her process so no it’s actually really really,

and then we can be very efficient and I’m also iot happen which is concerned as well in a note December 11th.

[14:09] That makes a lot of sense well let’s get back to our store here so you got into nodejs.

What you mention that at the time there wasn’t really a module system out there so I talked to Isaac’s leader last week and he was telling me about it, and Jas and.

How that kind of wound up becoming the standard for the module system.

Even though there was a lot more to it were you involved in that oh yeah yeah so I actually really mm.

Add a server JS meet up so it was it was not the deed to Factor winner yet,

what is one of the few different efforts to do server side down with some stuff and then just and had the least matter because system so the Narwhal folks it actually,

built quite a bit more than we had time and they were really leaving a lot of the comments after I had kind of decided to pick up,

these coming to your standards and in the middle lot of them in OJs because they were there and they seem to be sort of standardized so he went that route definition stuff.

I got involved so by this so in early 2010 I left Mozilla to work at the lake have to be company.

I got one and so we we also had a sort of server-side JavaScript system,

in the back in the couch to be for you to write your map in her do something.

[15:39] It was like this kind of hat goes on top of spider monkey that like talk to her like she was crazy fun,

but but we were also like I would be really nice if we could use some of these modules they’re out there so what are the reasons why I got so deep into the time was that I actually went and implemented come and just modules for those in the couch,

and actually tiny animation on top of the 1.1 spec to make sure that environment similar to be connect lyrics.

[16:15] We’re all trying to be very very second plane at the time so there was a like you’re used to,

Perl programming or Python Programming or Ruby programming what you have or web Frameworks and then web servers and there’s this connective protocol between them right so it’s wi in Ruby a trick,

and there was an attempt to write this for coming to a sand and this was what we’re arguing about the time I have to say,

it is surprising to me and Isaac are friends being that like I literally sat in the front row,

berated him because he was still trying to reconcile all these different everyday Ice and Fire,

get the comments back and I was already pretty soon actually,

anyway I was kinda trying to build out this connective tissue this,

framework nobody can actually reach agreement on that because the not well soaks really wanted,

similar kind of blocking sapi and that was a no-go for note and I mean literally kind of mid-2010 you can already see no drifting away from the come and aspects kind of,

cook-offs in terms of adoption it really didn’t matter what the coming days that’s doing anymore I mean we call our module system come into this today but it’s really not,

it’s it’s the note as much as there’s a lot of parts of it they’re just not comply it and in fact there’s a lot of semantics and how it’s implemented.

[17:49] Anywhere but you can’t break them,

if we ever broke them all the mothers need to break and so as we work on kind of es6 modules it’s become something of a challenge because people tend to think that it’s a little simpler if they’re just looking at the come and a spec actually have a lot of these kind of background semantics that we need to also consider when we had another model.

[18:14] That’s really really interesting so you’re one of the primary maintainers of nodejs.

[18:22] And I’m curious how did you get,

how did you get to that point cuz it sounds like you weren’t by any means one of the first people or Founders or whatever you want to call it of the project.

[18:33] That’s really interesting history first off I don’t really write much code at all anymore are you,

yeah yeah I know I handle a lot of the administrative stuff and a fair amount of the kind of community governance logistic stuff,

but yeah I’m not running a ton of now we have more people reading code ever and so it’s important for me to,

I was one of the earliest kind of people to get really involved in nose.

And by that I mean there were there going to be able to work kind of playing around with it but there’s really only a handful of people that were diving the codes sending Ryan patches that kind of stuff the first was for who actually worked on it I think the for Ryan even announced it,

they were both in Germany together with certainly very very early there before me actually,

but like me Tim Caswell Park cuerno Randy,

was around quite a bit he was writing core code but he was really like in forming a lot of APS and stuff we we would all kind of weather in San Francisco and War and kind of iterate on a lot of parts of node this we were still,

I mean you get to go back to this Lake wind Ryan first released note there was no streams API there actually like bleach.

[20:09] East component that would eventually be a scream at a completely separate API they wasn’t compatible with each other so that early streams work was was done kind of by this group of people of the precursor to type I actually wrote a book called plexus.com also I mean HTP went through a lot of iterations one of those iterations I actually wrote,

I request before,

bike different p.m. existed it was very very early inside of an ecosystem and definitely iterated overtime to that stream spec another thing to realize it’s like we we ended up having to write a binary specification because I didn’t have one yet so the,

the browser,

people were all kind of arguing about which one would win there was there in there competing specs so there was something from Acoma that they were trying to get through there was another one that was part of the webgl spec was the one that eventually one just because it was the first one there,

and people that were already using note alive,

actually the experts on dealing with binary and I actually like some Brandy,

was really trying to figure out how to fix humble to buy characters you like if you get the problem is emojis RR Motors right so.

That means that like if you’re choking them inside of a stream and they they crossed one of those boundaries between the trucks.

[21:40] If you don’t have a proper binary spec you’re not going to put them back together properly what you’re going to end up with this two different characters that don’t make any sense.

And what we were doing at the time which was basically string encoding binary data which is the worst thing you could possibly do couldn’t so she really could not support this kind of specs.

The buffer spec in NFL before implementation all came out of network was doing during that time.

No degree of tremendously tons of people got involved.

You know it went through several iterations of from people leaving the projects and then,

I kind of came back into the community at a time where people were really unhappy with the direction of the project in the level of maintainer and I could hearing whispers that people were you never need a fork and then.

[22:37] There were multiple groups of people wanted to for that we’re not talking to each other because communication is kind of broken work actually,

20 2015 just the kind of,

no no early 2014 okay just kind of get everybody in a room together get everybody may be agreeing to something and then,

by the end of that year we had kind of finally coalesced everybody together and then,

you know eventually that the for cap and eventually it which was one for work and doesn’t for talking to each other eventually you know we got a foundation and you know what are the things that I did when I really worked with the folks at the Linux Foundation,

to merge something from the IRS space in the government.

So that we can actually an emergency project back together and he laughs and we did that successfully and then I kinda took on the role of leading the foundation,

you know initially really just to make sure that all of that stuff continue to work out and then everything kind of continued smooth over and then we did an episode on iOS.

[23:57] I don’t remember if that was you were somebody else we talk to you about it it may have been me.

I’m just remembering you know there were feelings out in the community and then it all kind of resolved itself but you know it was it was.

If you talk to anybody who was writing core code on no choice at that time so probably tell you something different about why they were mad or why they were upset my perspective was that.

Most people were kind of feeling the same thing which was it was it was that they didn’t have control over their own work,

they didn’t have kind of agency and ownership over it and the only way to fix that,

what’s the move shoe model where the people who were contributors all kind of had equal ownership and governance of the project you know everybody had a million kind of technical challenges for the brakes until we know where the contributors actually run the Prada,

but I work with them to do when I worked with everybody to kind of create the IRS government model which,

inform the government we have today which really does put all of that ownership in the hands to committers that’s really interesting so so is that the main,

change that is just that the commuters have a little bit more control over the project in the direction it goes in or are there other benefits that we see.

Not a little bit I mean total control and it was someone from the bfl model where you know one person appointed by a company essentially had all of the decision-making Authority in the projects to model.

[25:35] We have a consensus seeking process that they can go to a majority vote we have.

[25:42] Things have really changed in the last 2 years and told her scale so as a move to this model we had tons of people show up to contribute I mean we went from,

you know maybe for five people,

they were committing to Nucor to now we have around a hundred committers Justin core when you look at the Oregon hole and all the other stuff happening kind of around core it’s more like 500 people that that required a lot of kind of structural changes to get into scale so.

Luna breaking out a lot of working groups you we ended up kind of separating the you.

[26:14] The upper-level decision-makers like basically when hard decisions happen that are really contentious who are the people that we trust and make those we broke down and into a group so that we can have,

a lot of committers that are all working reviewing and committing code when it’s when you know nobody has any problem with it,

the reality is the 95% of the code changes to get a Post-It note,

Dale and without anybody really objected to them I mean you know they go through a review process they might be altered in some way,

there are very few changes I mean relative the whole people actually have a problem with getting in or or where we try to optimize for the 95% casein to commit Arisen to review and iterating get that kind of stuff in,

and then just escalate issues that are contentious the people can’t seem to agree about to this group will that make sense to me I mean ultimately.

[27:10] I can see that if somebody contributes either a pull request or you know I change the spec or something where.

[27:17] Essentially it’s hey I have this problem in this would solve it and it’s things that,

people everybody else either doesn’t care about or it’s going to have a very minor effect on him one way or the other I can see everybody’s coming.

Yeah yeah and then where I usually see the contention if I’m watching what’s going on with Note.

Is when there’s like a new feature to be added to the language or you know something that comes into the ecosystem that you know is more destructive.

Until people are talking about the trade-offs and if you do that then I won’t be able to do this or it’ll be what a lot more work for me to do this or I’m really looking forward to this feature,

and it makes more sense to me if it works this way not that way.

Write me if you get a link to an issue on Twitter is probably one of these contentious issues and so it’s just it’s not representative what’s going on,

also there are a couple areas of nodejs that weaves weaves,

tried really hard to make it seem simple like so that when you’re using it it doesn’t seem really complicated but the underlying semantics of it are incredibly complicated and,

somewhat brutal if you’re trying to make changes to them so what are those is the event system and kind of the order in which events come out of the queue so.

Network events that time outs said immediate process next to call that kind of stuff there there’s an ordering and a kind of system by which we we told those out and it’s,

really particular and if you change things none of the you know it’s really hard test that will fail when this happens so you meet us there will be no crazy modules that depend on the semantics to break down the line upset about the other one.

[28:57] Texan how things actually get results,

yeah I mean Geordie of the changes going in now a days are actually you know and documentation improvements and tests fixes a new tests and all that kind of stuff I mean we made a really conscious effort from the project,

to say,

you know we value all different kinds contribution to Value people working on the website we value people writing localization tweet that you people reading documentation and tests and because we because we people the same kind of Ladder Up,

to become committers into even become unit decision-makers in the TC we’ve seen a lot more enthusiasm and a lot more people come into that Community because we’ve seen over the open the door for that.

[29:45] That’s interesting I kind of want to get back to your story here so you talked about how you’ve gone from sort of an individual committer to.

IO js2 now you sort of run the note Foundation or you hear you’re at least a big voice there and helping you know make sure the government’s happens the way that it does.

I’m just I’m trying to Envision like how all this occurs like an end what how did you feel as you kind of went from OK you know,

I’m in Noche es committer to.

Oh well we’re going to work this to make a OJs you know and then was that scary in in things like that men and then to where you are now and you know it.

Are you getting everything you wanted from this it’s hard to separate out.

The things that I did because I felt the responsibility to do them and because I may have been the only person in the position to do it,

and the things that I genuinely enjoyed genuinely enjoy Community work,

what one of the reasons why I kind of know a lot of these people is that I put in a lot of the early,

Community work rather than code work right so I started the first conference in no time for round node I did a lot of different meetups in organizing it all the end speaking and all that kind of stuff and would tend to,

the simple basics of nodejs that make it successful you know until that story that that’s getting out there rather than the coolest.

[31:18] So I do know and I love that Community work I’ve always done a lot of it,

sequin you know before I owed it happened one of the reasons why I didn’t figure it was just,

a lot of people that were working directly on core coming out with each other and you know you have personally been there.

So nobody was speaking with each other and I was one of the few people that it seemed like everybody was still talk to that was probably why,

Addison Point of meaning.

I really need no choice to succeed like I depend on it for everything that I do have a lot of you know what I really need to know this so I did that.

And then I really did enjoy building out the early governance models and kind of experimenting with you know what kind of incentive structure that you can create inside of the governance and what the results will be at scale so when you swing you start to,

you know grow the contributor Bay so quickly know what happens to these people and do they relieve continue to feel enabled and all that kinda stuff I do find that really interesting,

my job now is definitely more administrative and that’s that’s something that I’m not as well suited for,

be honest like I do a lot of administrative stuff and I took that on because I was really the only person there to do it I think I know it.

[32:48] In the mid to long-term I ever I’ll probably go back to you know community-oriented role or more developer Oriental at some point.

[32:59] Gotcha so what you we were talking before hand and you still do get to write code it just as you sound like you’re contributing it unto node.

I don’t feel like I’m not paid by anybody including the detention direct code.

I know I mean I read code on my own still need the most patient though I mean.

We really don’t want kind of paid full-time Foundation people to crowd out the rest of the community contributors,

when can we have a thriving and growing contributor based node some weird incentive mismatches happen when you start also paying people to contribute in there there’s a perception that they’re somewhat more valued,

you know there’s a lot of weird things that can happen I’ve seen it go wrong enough to want to avoid it if we didn’t have enough committed right now I may be saying something different and trying to do something else but we,

driving contributor base and a lot of that comes down to how we done our governance model in a lot of our community organizing that make sense,

so so what is your job title is community,

my there is no executive director of the foundation we just never had one we we hope to get one at some point though so that means that I kind of fill in for that role as well so I prepare.

[34:30] The board minutes I are going to run the board meetings I handle a lot of that kind of Topline administrative tasks like sending invoices and writing budgets and no talking to a lot of the internal staff do you know everything,

yeah and then still spend a bit of time on the community side of working with the TSA in the CTC not as much as I would like to actually like to go,

back to spending more time on that side but you know we’ve actually hired Traci Hines,

it also do some candy management focused more on the education side of things but she’s just way too talented to see that she’s just going to do that one thing and I think she’s come on the need to involve myself in every Community thing cuz she’s,

really really confident,

that’s awesome it sounds like kind of what I do here I mean I spend usually a day to day and a half recording podcast.

The best of it is maintaining the website in lining up gas and all that other stuff.

[35:42] So yeah so what are you working on now and what’s going on with a note Foundation these days.

Like like we’re where we heading now when we look at a server-side JavaScript and what’s your role in that.

[35:56] So I think note itself.

Is it a point of maturity if it’s really kinda nice um it’s a thing that you can depend on and I think most impressive is that we found a model for the releases for the long-term support and for you know,

new features in new stuff to lend balance is a lot of different types of people so we have.

Huge amount of adoption of new releases of node particularly LPS releases that’s great,

because we do one of those a year and not a lot of projects that are doing yearly consistent releases get that kind of adoption of each new release and a really good job of keeping things,

Federal so you know every month end in a lot of new features and coolers for developers work on note to get excited that building so we shall insalata I think some of the,

bigger things moving into the future is this an API which is essentially,

the sea level a PICC plus level currently we just bind directly to be 8 so whatever,

API the Viet exposes we buy into the new chakra stuff with it that binds to Microsoft,

over a Microsoft he talked a lot about that in March I will probably talk to him again build again this year.

[37:27] Yeah you really should you really should cuz he’s been leading some of the nappy work so thanks,

yeah yeah so so what moving to now is like there’s an API that we Define that we know now have buying from you know the VA team and the soccer team and even people instead they will expose that API and they will keep up with it and so now I know you can be being neutral,

and that’s that’s good not just for people that like one of I know to another VM I don’t think there’s a ton of people out there that are like,

no jumping at the bit to bind Ministry Orpheum but it does mean that,

all these beings are going to get faster for those cases because these Engineers are incredibly better once we show that you know you’re not as good at this thing on note and somebody else we’re going to get faster so which means you’re going to get faster,

also one of the biggest challenges in updating new releases of node,

is native modules models at buying to that be a TPI because it changes during every major at least no actually be able to create stability in the native layer when you approach a new version of know you,

don’t have to go in like I’ll tell your modules and you have a bunch of broken so that’s going to be huge for the project,

thanks for the project for me personally I don’t know,

had a really good run of it things have been really fun I may start thinking about you know what is the next one thing that I do know.

[39:00] So so in all of these features coming out you just create the issues and have the conversations and then.

[39:08] What stuff up there for computers to work on or do you kind of have different groups of people that are going to take on this different pieces or how does that work.

Depends on,

what it is I think there’s a lot of background,

a better term politics or happen the need to happen with like maybe different companies and stuff like that and I tend to have that,

again because I’m sleeping more,

the individual differences in AP I think,

this is a lot of November’s on working together and we’ve been laying the foundation for that to happen and building those relationships since I have to be honest like we really wanted to me,

create a better relationship with the B18 better relationship with the people and the people came on board,

we we recently announced that we have taken into kind of node security project so security is kind of donating that and so there’s a lot of kind of,

Round Lake legal work that needs to happen that’s like transferring assets and how this is going to work so I end up handling a lot of that because the intersection of consideration also the community of the contributors in Salt Lake,

so as far as who builds what things like that that’s mostly just coordinated by the other contributors I want to work on this so.

[40:42] We have a model where you can really work on whatever you want to work on so.

Is this may seem counterintuitive but we if this is the reason why we don’t have an official roadmap right we don’t want to say this is important,

according to the project what is important the project is whatever the contributors want to make half,

we feel as you know actually going to improve know that isn’t a scope and it’s going to break anywhere with those considerations in mind,

but really I mean if you want to put the work into doing something we’re ready to accept it and that opens the door for you know anybody to get excited about at work on anything that they find,

you know did they get into the attic about.

And that’s that turned out to be really great model I think that you know they’re a bunch of individual work in groups to handle a lot of a really particular task so there’s no nlts working group for the long-term support stuff and importing changes and that’s LED,

by Anna James Snell and miles for and there’s to build working group led by Rod bag,

too much for the people that they maintain an amazing completely don’t need to completely Community Arundel and it’s it’s one of the most impressive things have been able to build.

[41:53] MS project and then you know the core itself is it’s pretty you just think that the,

top-level decision maker group to CTC I think it’s up to like 17 or 18 members now you know those meetings are run by Rich trucks actually came out the community around testing so she has a really great,

purview and finished Sonoma contributors a week we really know we’re really trying not to rely on any individual like me to get anything done and I’m trying to do right now is identify,

areas that I am the only person anybody ever contacts the only person I know some things we can try and,

Fred that are delegated so we can keep the scale I mean we’re just seeing so much growth in contributors and people stepping up that we really need to you know continue to enable new leaders and continue distribute a lot of the authority and response the project out to them.

[42:49] Very cool so we got into your contributions are there any other contributions you want to talk about outside of node.

[42:57] Yeah sure when the things that have been working on in my own time for about a year now is that I’m just in kind of Dipping my toe in and to the,

your web distributed web stuff that’s going on so there is no web RTC actually enables like an entire new class of,

different projects under some really interesting technology out there so it would like to see two there’s you know IPS she’s a really interesting project I’ve been playing with a lot of this stuff,

and there’s a really interesting overlap between the needs of people that need access for people that have kind of intermittent.

Access you know they they have cut off of the internet in and out between him and the pure world,

immediately obvious but it’s the same issue where you can’t rely on a central Authority and you need to come up with different semantic search for tography and signing in,

and stuff like that and then along with that you start to get into also the needs of privacy and then which is probably the next,

really important things that we really need to get developer to cert,

thinking very differently about what is the privacy of data what can you do without starting any day that I can you store data so that you can try to put on you just can you know these kinds of things so then working a lot,

have a lot of you know fun side projects that really kind of,

tackle different corners of the problem to see what we can learn one of the biggest issues with this entire space right now.

[44:31] Is it there just isn’t the developer infrastructure built yet to enable you to write things easily,

if you just wanted me know sign some stuff you really have to,

how to figure out the house could talk to it works there’s an just a really simple Library where it’s like oh it does this thing and it’s in the tractor that I understand you really know those out there that you really understanding and we know that so slowly I’ve been trying to build up,

no more libraries that myself other developers can use,

we had to really interesting really new space I tend to gravitate towards your community is if they think there’s just a lot of opportunity to solve new problems and to work with a lot of people the superstore.

[45:20] That’s funny that you say that it I’ve talked to a lot of people and it seems like people tend to fall into one of those camps where it’s you know they’re the people that go in.

You know they’re basically credit cuz I can’t talk they’re basically cutting Sagebrush and,

you know building roads and you know,

writing maps for the the next set of people the settlers to come in and then the settlers are the ones that are clearing the farms and raising the food and and and,

putting in irrigation and plumbing and all that stuff and then and then finally you get everybody else who comes in when it’s you know a bit more stable,

and you know there’s this kind of Gold Rush at the end where there’s enough infrastructure for people to come in to be comfortable there and so it sounds like you’re one of those early Pioneers that goes in there and.

Cuts the road and figures out you know how you get around this mountain and here’s how you get water.

What I think that there’s there’s two different versions of that person though I think there is I mean,

because I was around when,

in there I knew an insole of the people that were very attracted or just being in your community and then left as soon as it wasn’t a new community mostly what they did was they were just in a different language somewhere else because what they really want to be at the first person to write that thing in a particular language like they’re only interested in that aspect of it,

I love this guy and he’s basically going around and written six three different.

[46:54] Pregnant languages now and it’s kind of the same base level construction each and then kind of moves on to the next day and you know TJ hell awaits you know went over to go and then basically ruined everything that heater anode and go,

that’s not something that really interests me all like I request once for node I don’t want to be the request go guy or that we can clean it ever rain in language today I don’t want to be interested in,

areas that are relatively unexplored in any context or in any language or especially areas where there’s a lot of.

Knowledgeable people and academic work but nobody’s made it easy nobody’s made it simple and accessible to regular people yet,

I really like those those kinds of space at the same and I really like solving those kinds of problems and it’s the kind of learned a lot and then,

to simplify it and make it more accessible to other people and you can see a lot of people get it I find that kind of work early so very cool.

Is there anything else you working on now that you want to talk about or should we move on to the next thing.

[48:04] I mean I have a podcast that I’m really proud of with though his leg bone called the RFC request for commits published by the change log but,

the Deep dive into open-sourced inability so we talked to,

guess that you may have heard of her you may not have heard of but the conversation that we have very different than those we really don’t bring people on in and ask them about what they’re working on now or any of that we really dig into these,

particular vertical topics of open-sourced and ability and managing projects in that kind of stuff so I’m really proud of them.

[48:43] Super cool how do people get it.

[48:48] I’ll take you right there alright good deal,

are you trying to figure out how to stay current with Ruby on Rails I’m putting on a two-day online conference call Ramiro, you could check it out at Ruby remote.com.

Like I said it’s a two-day conference where you can come and listen to the speakers and experts from all around the world talk to you about issues pertaining to Ruby and web development,

we have an online slack Channel a Roundtable discussion on zoom and all of the talks are given over Google Hangouts.

And all the talks will be stream to live come check us out there Ruby remote comp.com.

[49:26] Let’s go ahead and get some pics.

Chesapeake Forest.

So let me think here pics pics pics,

I think a lot of your listeners are probably already seen it but if you have seen it you haven’t seen it,

definitely check it out web Torrent by by Ferris book a DJ,

notion of Victoria and JavaScript and it also has a bunch of new extension to the dorm protocol that make it work of a web RTC and create a sort of web tracker,

you know if there’s a great desktop app now there’s a couple web sites where you can I drop stuff I wrote one actually called drop up,

you can just drop files into a peer-to-peer in the browser,

but I really encourage you as a developer start playing with some of the code in your front end because you realize how easy it is to just automatically share out,

you know these different binary blobs and files and stuff with different people and you can really in bed and to any website the ability for everybody on that website to be sure we got this violin just really cool.

Super cool we had frost on JavaScript jabber with a link to his episode in the show as well we talked about really cool.

It’s been a while and I’m sure there are more cool stuff there but one thing at a time.

[51:00] Contracted him to get web Torrent support into Brave noodly so fairly soon there will be a version of Brave where to click on a magnet link it it just download it and there’s just no web Torrent go to the browser,

crap I want the Hat.

[51:17] Yeah it’s it’s fantastic and I’m really excited about it to break a while back and have a look.

[51:26] Alright will count that as a pic to Fantastic more personal nature are there any books or movies or TV shows that you really into these days.

I know man I just I just pulled down a ton of them so,

I actually know people kind of stuff but I really did like his past and he just released Titans from,

the cool different things on there so it’s a great book to flip around and another one just got really excited about that,

looks pretty good is a normal by Warren Ellis Metropolitan,

I’m coming over but this is just a normal that new Sci-Fi books actually good.

[52:23] Alright very cool I’m going to jump in with a few pics myself for first pic I have is when I go out with conferences I have stickers so if you,

if you want to stick her for JavaScript ever adventures nagler and you know I’m going to be at your conference then yeah come find me but I get them from snakes,

I really can’t talk today from you and anyway I.

I really like them they do a lot of great stuff you can also get magnets and stuff from now which I’m kind of interested in doing so we’ll see how that goes.

I know you have seen lately some of these at interactive but also when I gave me one and just put a different one for Christmas actually,

but this like pins they basically like you know multicolored like metal pins that you can put on stuff,

yeah yeah dad there’s a couple companies in out there doing them pretty cheap and really really high-quality so you have a couple more than two predicted as they’re pretty fun,

oh cool I’ll check that out the other pic I have if you do a Google search for seize the year or if you go to New Year that’s in EU.

[53:36] Year they sell these big poster size calendars.

And you can get them on regular paper or you can get them so you can write on them with whiteboard markers and I got one of the Whiteboard marker ones because I’m special,

F450 love it it’s really nice just so you know I can write out what’s going on next year.

So it so we’re going on the trip this weekend I’m going to this conference on this weekend I’m going to be traveling for this on this week and I’m really excited about it so.

I just put it up on the closet door in my office and yeah so I just write on it I’ve also,

been tending to write because I’ve been following a program called the 12-week year I guess I’ll pick that too it’s a book written by Brian Moran and.

[54:21] Anyway so I will when I plan my 12-week year I will actually write in what I need to get done each week.

Rite Aid in in different colors and said that I can get an idea okay this week I’ve got to get this done next week I get that done next week I had to get that done.

And that way you know I’m I know what I’m working on that week and then things like jazz remote company March go off without a hitch,

or you know I get the marketing together for another conference or I get.

You know I’ve been hiring people lately and so that’s been a big focus and so it’s okay you know interviews this week or whatever so anyway,

I really like it it’s it’s a really really great way to keep track of what things are going on throughout the yourself with that as well.

[55:06] Alright Michael if people want to call you see what you’re up to.

You know get the latest and greatest about you or note or whatever where do they go.

I would just go to Twitter and my KAAL from there you can find websites in different stuff that I’m working on and everything.

Sweet alright well we’ll go ahead and wrap this one up but thank you for coming and spending time with us.

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