The Freelancers’ Show 067 – LinkedIn with Wayne Breitbarth

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Panel Wayne Breitbarth (twitter linkedin) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:07 - Wayne Breitbarth Introduction The Power Formula for LinkedIn Success by Wayne Breitbarth 01:37 - Importance of LinkedIn 02:39 - Making Connections Advance Search Filtering 03:16 - Handling Random Requests/Spam 04:16 - Finding Others vs Getting Found 07:34 - Profile Advice Catchy Headline Descriptive Summary Establish Credibility List Resources 12:50 - Profiles vs Resumes Attention Span Calls to Action 17:39 - Groups 20:00 - Choosing LinkedIn over other platforms (i.e. Google+) 22:03 - Endorsements 26:06 - Free vs Paid Accounts 28:19 - Getting the most out of LinkedIn Cool Profile Strategic Connections 31:28 - Volunteer Causes and Experiences 34:39 - Profile Pictures 35:53 - Finding and joining good groups 37:38 - Handling Profile Views Finding out how people find you 41:27 - Spending time on LinkedIn 42:29 - Reaching out to others via LinkedIn 43:36 - LinkedIn Third Party Applications LinkedIn App Hootsuite 44:27 - Status Updates 44:48 - Company Pages Picks S5: A Simple Standards-Based Slide Show System (Reuven) org-S5 (Reuven) Backups (Reuven) PHPStorm Tutorials (Curtis) My Daily Scrum (Curtis) Scrivener (Eric) Bartender | Mac Menu Bar Item Control (Jeff) Platform: Get Noticed in a Noisy World by Michael S. Hyatt (Wayne) This Is Your Life Podcast (Chuck) Platform University (Chuck) Next Week Freelancers Show: Building a Consultancy with Ben Lachman and Robert Cantoni Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at][you're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? the upcoming book, next level freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. the book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. check it out today at!] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 67 of the Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello! CHUCK: Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Good day! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from This week, we have a special guest and that's Wayne Breitbarth. WAYNE: Hi everybody! CHUCK: Since you haven't been on the show before, do you want to introduce yourself? WAYNE: Sure! My name is Wayne Breitbarth, I'm the author of "The Power Formula for LinkedIn Success" - sort of a self-taught, self-made LinkedIn expert; didn't want anything to do with social media, but now has found a way to actually make a living doing it and just having a blast doing so. CHUCK: Awesome. I've been reading your book, and it's really, really good. And I'm really excited to talk about a lot of the stuff related to LinkedIn. For us as freelancers, I'm a little curious, what do you think the most important part of LinkedIn is for us? WAYNE: I think what we all have to do -- we're all sort of in the game of trying to build our business every single day of the week, right? One of the most important things you got to do is make a lot of connections - the right connections. Secondly, you got to make sure that your profile has got all the critical keywords. I know you are very techy guys, so you probably get that part that many people don't.


[Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at!] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 67 of the Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello! CHUCK: Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Good day! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from This week, we have a special guest and that's Wayne Breitbarth. WAYNE: Hi everybody! CHUCK: Since you haven't been on the show before, do you want to introduce yourself? WAYNE: Sure! My name is Wayne Breitbarth, I'm the author of "The Power Formula for LinkedIn Success" - sort of a self-taught, self-made LinkedIn expert; didn't want anything to do with social media, but now has found a way to actually make a living doing it and just having a blast doing so. CHUCK: Awesome. I've been reading your book, and it's really, really good. And I'm really excited to talk about a lot of the stuff related to LinkedIn. For us as freelancers, I'm a little curious, what do you think the most important part of LinkedIn is for us? WAYNE: I think what we all have to do -- we're all sort of in the game of trying to build our business every single day of the week, right? One of the most important things you got to do is make a lot of connections - the right connections. Secondly, you got to make sure that your profile has got all the critical keywords. I know you are very techy guys, so you probably get that part that many people don't. But the keyword at LinkedIn is just a huge database of business folks, waiting to be introduced to and connected with, and hopefully, a lot of good things can come out of it. No different than if you go to a physical event; it's nice to have more people there, the better. Well on LinkedIn, we got 250 million. So, it's pretty easy to find the people we need to meet. That's the key. The key is to try to be able to define who you want to meet more of, and then look for them, and then reach out and make a connection, and start things. CHUCK: Awesome. JEFF: How do I find people that have lots of money and really interesting promise to solve on LinkedIn? [Chuck chuckles] WAYNE: Hello! That's a good one. What are they look like? A little more than that. JEFF: [Laughs] I don't know. WAYNE: [Laughs] The whole key to finding people on LinkedIn is using a Advanced search, and that's up on your top toolbar; you just click the word "Advanced". Then, it's just a matter of filtering. I'll tell you what, there's hardly anybody that once they figured out how to use that Advanced filter, Search filter, that they don't use that tool probably several times a week to find more and more people that are in their wheelhouse. CURTIS: Something that has always turned me off, though, is random request from people I've never met before, and I'm not even sure how they're related to what I do. It just has felt like spam many times. How do you deal with that? WAYNE: That's one of the problems; everybody's got a different agenda. There are agendas not the same as yours evidently. How do I deal with it? Well, I ignore a lot of those people. When I can tell in their profile that either they don't even look like a real person, or that I don't see anything on their profile that could resonate with me, then I usually just -- I put them into archive, or I delete them. Because you're going to have that because the beauty of the thing is this huge database and everybody can find people. But there's some people that are just out there trying to gather just as many people as they can, so they can start spamming. It's "you're damned if you do and damned if you don't" because you want to go out and find people that you don't know, too. So, you got to sort of put up with that part of it, I guess. REUVEN: You're describing LinkedIn as a way to find other people, like to go and search for them. I always thought as LinkedIn as a way for other people to find me pretty easily. Do you see both of these as useful? Or, mostly more on the finding others? WAYNE: No, I think it's both. I think it's both ways. Your profile hangs up there with all the right keywords and the right stories and the descriptions of what you do and all that good stuff, waiting for people to find you. But on the other hand, I think you got to be proactive, too, and use it in a way that -- like I just got done, before we got on the call, I just contacted 15 people that run radio shows and just sort of pitch the pack that, "I got the second edition of my book and I'd love to be on your show if I'm a speaker that's interesting to you," I'll tell you what, by the end of the day, I'll probably get at least 4 or 5 of say, "Yeah, let's go!" and other 5 that I'll probably pick with the next few days. So because I search for business radio show host, people have that on their profile. But I'm proactive about that. CHUCK: Basically, in order for us to effectively find the people that we want to find, we actually need to know who they are and what they're going to be listing in their profiles so that we can use the Search to identify them and then we chat to them. WAYNE: Yeah! The easiest way to do that is, if you already have relationship with a certain type of person like in this case, let's stick with business radio show host, then I know those are the words that they're going to use in their profile, then I do my search based on that. So you just look at people that already are good for you, look at their profile, see what things they have in common, whether it's a school or keywords or software or town that they're in or college they went to, whatever the criteria is. And then you can actually use the Safe Search, like they can do that for you, and send you an email weekly with people that meet this exact criteria. REUVEN: Years ago, when I was between projects and sort of trying to figure out how to get some new clients, I tried some cold calling. I was like, "Well, what company who'd sort of be interested in the kind of stuff, the kind of software development that I do?" And not only did I completely missed the right companies to call -- I was really bad at finding companies and then I was bad at the cold calling. And it sounds like, what you're suggesting is, LinkedIn could be used to at least solve part of the first problem where I can say, "I'm really interested in targeting a particular segment, and then find people in that segment to where at least somewhat close to me; have some sort of relationship either with me or someone I have relationship with and then try to work on them." WAYNE: That's the key rule of it. With LinkedIn, you could find the people, but then take that next step and spend some time on their profile and see how you can reach out to them in a way that doesn't feel cold. REUVEN: Right. WAYNE: Maybe it's an introduction from a friend, maybe it's the fact that you see that you both are involved in a similar charity, or maybe it's the fact that you went in the same college, maybe not the same time, who knows? But with the information at some people's profiles, you can start to think to yourself, "Why would this person want to talk to me?" So on this radio show host, I'm thinking to myself, "Will they need people? They need the right kind of speakers to come on their shows," so it's a win-win. I just have to find them and then at least share my proposition, and then if it's a win-win, then they get back to me. REUVEN: Uhm-hmm. CHUCK: When I'm looking at people and I'm looking at their profiles, sometimes I've noticed -- and you also point this out in your book -- that not all of the most important information is always at the top of the profile. So, what part should we be looking at when we look at other people's profile as possibly key areas? And, what should we do to make sure that the most important information for our profiles is up where people are going to see it? WAYNE: Sure. When it comes to looking at another people's profiles, first thing I'll always do is look at their headline. The headline usually tells me sort of a very short synopsis of what they're up to and how I might be able to be involved or not. But then I go down to the right hand side and look and see if I know anybody that knows them, and then start to get a feel for, "Okay if this person knows them, they're probably this kind of people," or whatever. Then I'll drop down to the "In Common With" section to see if I have any icebreakers that would make sense for me to talk to them. But then I'll read their job descriptions. I'll read the summary first because if people are doing their summary right, it sort of like a cup of coffee like, "Hey, sit down and have a cup of coffee. Let me tell you quickly what I'm up to and how you might be able to be involved." And then after that, just read the job descriptions and see if there's something that resonates you, especially the current job description because that's probably where you're going to find out whether you're going to meet the needs of whatever they're trying to do or accomplish. But, you're right. You could slide down to publications and all of a sudden, you look and you find their blog and you read their blog and you go, "Oh, my gosh! You didn't even mention this," that the blog is something they'd really interested in; maybe that's what to uses your entree. That's how you sort of approach looking at people's profiles. As far as your own profile, what you got to do is you got to make sure that it's loaded with keywords and that it has to clearly define what your business is and the kind of people that you would like to meet more of. It just can't look like a resume. Because it looks like a resume or set up like one, people tend to load their resume stuff and then go, "Hey, wait! Look at my profile! It looks perfect, doesn't it? It looks just like my resume." And I go, "Well, that's a great start. But you got to go a lot further." Resumes are really boring and not interesting and they don't really say how you want to work with people or whatever. So, make sure that the headline is catchy. I don't mean catchy in the sort of a salesy way; catchy in that, in those 120 characters, people will get what you're up to. A lot of people had it even put a headline in, and so LinkedIn simply grabs your title and your company name, and jams it up on your headline, and it's not even descriptive at all. So you got to make sure your headline is clear because that travels around with you on LinkedIn, there's lots of spots where people will scroll over your name and up pops just a little summary. But that's your headline, so that's got to be clear. And then I would make sure that the summary in those first 2 paragraphs, such are really high in your profile, clearly define what it is you're up to and how people could be involved or not. Last thing we want to do is waste time with each other; we could help each other somehow. Past that, then it's a matter of just building your profile so that your credibility stands on as an expert and as a qualified professional in the space that you're in and give them maybe some free resources of some downloads or some video to watch. There's so many ways to take that profile to the next level of just a bunch of facts and figures into, "Hey, read this stuff, watch this thing, download this and you'll see why I'm the expert you should call." REUVEN: Are you saying that my profile should begin with like literally the words, or something close to the words like, "I'm looking to meet people who have software problems of the following sort"? How would you phrase it other than, "Well, this is what I do and this is what I'm interested in"? I'm just thinking, it's different for different people, right? WAYNE: I think the sentence you just started would be a corporate way to start your summary. REUVEN: Wow! That is why it only different than a resume and I totally thought of it as an online resume [Inaudible]. WAYNE: You should look at my profile after the call and you'll see that first paragraph of my summary how I basically say -- my first sentence established is that I'm a expert. I talk about how many people I've trained, but then I jumped right into "...and I help business executives learn how to use LinkedIn to grow their business", so I really jump right into so that if somebody reads it, they go, "God! I've got to have this guy," right? REUVEN: Uhm-hmm. WAYNE: Or, not! That's fine, too! CHUCK: Yeah. It does make it easy for people to figure out if they're not a fit. WAYNE: No, I don't think I would start my headline out with "I'm looking for..." [Reuven chuckles] WAYNE: In my headline, I would sort of -- I tend to use like the pipe key to just sort of use...I think I've got the author of my book and then I go to pipe key social media consultant, social media trainer. So up there, it's a little more like just little quick little blurbs about with keywords of things that you do. But then that first paragraph for the summary should be sort of like, just what you said, Reuven; that would be a perfect start. CHUCK: The other thing, because we're talking about this versus a traditional resume, on your LinkedIn profile, a lot of folks, in fact, most of the profiles I look at -- because now, I'm clicking through the people that I've connected with on LinkedIn -- a lot of them, they have like, "This is the place I work," and then they have the bullet points stuff like you have on your typical resume. And when I'm looking at yours, you get a little bit of the bullet points stuff, but it's "Here's what I do..." and they're like 3 paragraphs before you really get to other services, training DVDs, classes I offer, things like that, where then you're giving us a list. But the main thing, the first thing you're going to read is, "Social media is here to stay, blah, blah, blah," and you've got a couple of paragraphs there that explained it rather than bullet points on whatever. So I guess my question is this, say I have a position in my past where I ran the tech support team rather than saying, "Built a team that dah, dah, dah," and then the next one's another bullet point, should I say "I built a team that did this, and we did this well. And we put this processes in place..." and kind of tell the story of my job as opposed to the bullet points of "Here's a list of whatevers that I did"? WAYNE: Well, I think you got to step back and say, "What would I like people to..." -- the people are short of attention spans as we know, right? So if you start off with "I was born in 1968 on a farm in Iowa," that's not going to get up anybody, right? [Reuven laughs] WAYNE: So you've got to realize that you got to get them early on with "Do we have a match for continuing this reading of your profile". That's why I think that first paragraph, even before that made to your headline, will get people to go "Should I keep reading more of Charle's profile or shouldn't I?" So you want to draw a little bit off of your past experience so that people think you're credible. But if all you do is layout the first 3 paragraphs of all my credibility statements before you get to "Here's what I'm up to and how we might be able to work together," you may not keep them around. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. WAYNE: Now, you noticed where I put my bullet points, those are my calls to action. So most people missed the point on both their individual profile and their company page that you better make sure you've got some calls to action in there because we assume people know what to do next, but many people don't. So when people are landing on a profile, it's sort of like shopping for a new car like a Camry. In my classes, I talk about this Camry. I said, "People are using LinkedIn sort of like they buy a Camry, where they're looking for people this time. If you're not all shined up and ready to go so people understand who you are and what you do, what the next step should be before I actually come in and bring a credit card to buy you?" Calls-to-action are simply a way to say, "Listen, go to my website, read this, download this. Or, even on this profile, watch this video, see this customer who talks about me." It's a process like buying a Camry and that we shop, shop, shop, and then we might go look at 2 or 3 cars to buy one. Well, the same thing happens on LinkedIn. They're looking for people with similar backgrounds and they're trying to decide which one's to maybe call before they're going to get some pricing, before they're going to hire somebody. So it's a shopping process that you got to move people along in the steps. CHUCK: Again, you think of this as kind of a social network where you connect with other people, you kind of put your resume online that's kind of how I saw it before, but never really thought of this as a marketing channel and really, really kind of is. WAYNE: Boy, oh boy! My problem with LinkedIn, my first 6 or 7 months of friends bothering me to be on LinkedIn, was because all I thought about it was what you've said, what you thought it was. That, "I don't need a resume, I own company. What I need to be on this stupid thing for?" [Chuck laughs] WAYNE: And then I had my "Aha!" moment when I did my very first Advanced search. I said, "Oh, my gosh! That is so powerful." I know a lot of people. If I can start knowing who their friends are, that is pretty cool. And then secondly, when I started to realize that your profile is sort of your number one professional branding online identity tool, and you can tell all the storytelling and get recommendation jobs, it's a perfect marketing tool in both those respects. So a lot of people are just sitting back, trying to get their resume stuff and think something's going to happen, and I think you're just missing it. CHUCK: Yup. One other aspect that I really like about LinkedIn is the groups. Is there a good way to take advantage of the groups other than just participate and help people out? WAYNE: Let me tell you about groups a little bit, starting with the fact that you can be in up to 50 groups, so there's a maximum, and there's several strategies on groups. Before we go into what to do on a group, understand this about a group: When it comes to search relevancy on LinkedIn, one of the most important things that LinkedIn ranks relevancy on is a relationship with the person. Which means that if I was searching for what you did, and you and I were first level connected, there's a good chance you're going to come up high and earn a search in somebody who on second level or third level connection connected to with the exact same keywords that I search. But groups also comes into play. And LinkedIn sort of makes a conclusion on relevancy, that if you're in a group with somebody, there's a level of relevancy that transcends what our connection relationship might be. So when you think about that, when you're trying to gain the most exposure and the most stability to communicate with people, you want to join in a lot of groups. So the smart people know that you should be joining 50 groups. Now, the trouble of joining 50 groups is you're going to get too many emails, but that's easily fixed just by going into your settings and turning off the emails of the groups that you don't want to hear from on a consistent basis, but you want to engage when you want. So start with that premise; the premise that being in groups is a good thing for exposure and communication. And then, once you have all the strategy, you've got some groups that you want to engage in consistently because they're just the right space for you. In those cases, what you want to do is going in and listen to discussions and try to engage, watch what other people are talking about, post your own questions or discussions, because in groups, you want to sort of stand out as a thought leader in that space, whatever that might be. The other thing, once you're in a group and you become sort of a person that people look to for answering questions and continuing conversations and posting good thought leadership ideas, then start to look for connections in those groups because people already feel like they know you so the connection part would be easy. ERIC: For all of that, why would I choose LinkedIn over another platform, like Google+? Because you can do that in many other places as well, and I only have so much time in a day. WAYNE: What's interesting about the Google+ thing is, that's the platform that looks like it's going to give the best competition on what's going on on LinkedIn. Why would I do one over the other? I guess at this point, I would just look at probably the profiles, and the searching works a little better on LinkedIn because people have been in there a little longer. I know there's more people on Google+ than LinkedIn, but I don't think there's as many people with robust profiles to the point where you can do the kind of searching. But I'm experimenting with Google+ so I'm not going to tell you that I think that it's not going to be a permittable opponent or a place where you go, "I'm going to spend time on Google+ instead of LinkedIn," there's a lot of similarities on there. Actually, couple of things in Google+ I like better is the Circle; it's sort of a cool idea. And Hangouts are really cool. ERIC: Yeah. CHUCK: I think it really just depends on -- and this is something that you hear from a lot of marketing folks -- is where is the circle of people that you want to be involved with. WAYNE: What I find -- if I could meet with people out on a day-to-day basis, people make a decision to hire me to help their company or speak at a conference or whatever -- what I'm finding is when it comes to CEO level executives and people sort of at the VP level, most of them are now finally on LinkedIn; believe me, it took a few years. But I don't find that the majority of them are on Google+ to see at it. It might be that they just back that a question, "Do they have time to be on more than one?" CURTIS: I think that's the industry-specific as well. Like for me, I'm mostly doing WordPress work, almost all of the people that could hire me or would contract me in the community or refer me are on Google+. WAYNE: This whole social media space is going to be "Be where your people on." CHUCK: Yup, absolutely. The next question I've got for you is around the Endorsements. Is there a good way to do that? Is there a way of getting people to endorse me for the things that I want them to? WAYNE: This whole Endorsement thing is the number one question I get all the time because it's sort of annoying. CHUCK: Yeah, it's really sort of annoying. WAYNE: Yeah, the blue box pops up and it won't go away and, like you said, it throws up some skills that you don't even want to be endorsed for. LinkedIn is investing a lot of time in money and endorsement as you can tell. So that makes it important; that makes it important, at least, in their world and maybe for its searchability. I like to call endorsements that yelping up people. If you think about it -- [Chuck laughs] WAYNE: So think about it in terms of that. Think about it in terms of, in 3 or 4 years from now, it's probably going to be an important part of the LinkedIn search algorithm for the skills, which to me, look like keywords, and how high you're going to show up on a search because LinkedIn is going to make the assumption, the more endorsements you have for a certain word, the better you are. You can argue all day that that's not how it's done, but that's how Yelp works, too. People can make a lot of recommendations, and the next thing you know, people are going there. But -- REUVEN: They're not going away? WAYNE: Endorsements are not going away; there's way too much effort put in by LinkedIn. But then the other thing you got to think about is this, if somebody's going to hire expert A or expert B, couple of years from now let's say, they do their homework and they try to decide which people look good, and they come up with the last two candidates and they've done their vetting, and it get done and go and say, "I like these two people; they both look great." One of the things they might do, just like Yelp, is go down to Endorsements and look up the word, the skill, and they'll go, "So one guy has got 350 endorsements, the other one has got 15. I think I'll start with the 350." CHUCK: Yeah. REUVEN: In my case, at least, it feels like a huge number of the endorsements I get, not to minimize the number or importance, but a huge number of them are from people whom I barely know or who are endorsing me for things that are not necessarily accurate. But here's the thing, that doesn't really matter, that people will still take it seriously over time. WAYNE: Well, no. Here's what you should do, the management of your skills and the endorsements that attached those skills is to make sure that the skills that you have showing up on your profile and are getting endorsed for are the ones you want. So it's all of a sudden basket we've encrypt into your profile because LinkedIn threw it out to me and I just said "Yes" and you got it, and you said "Yes" and it showed up there, and all of a sudden, 10 more people endorsed you for that. You ought to take down basket weaving, because the system is sort of crazy and it's putting these words that don't mean anything. Everybody thinks they're getting endorsed by strangers, but you're really not get endorsed by a stranger because you can only get endorsed by a first degree person. But it's probably the first degree person that never hired you to do whatever they're endorsing you for. So this is sort of crazy. But the management of this thing is to go on your Endorsements when you're in Edit Profile and make sure that the right words are there. And if some words don't make sense, just take them down. Now, if it's a word like leadership, let's say, and all of a sudden, you find yourself of 45 endorsements for leadership, it's not a bad word, but it's not a word people are going to search for, like LinkedIn Training or LinkedIn Speaking, or Social Media Marketing or something for me. Then you might leave that one up because you do get 50. But there is a management technique here to make sure that over time, the right things get to the top. Now, back to your question, how do you get them? Some of it, it's going to still populate because of the way that stupid blue box pops up, but other ways are just simply to ask your clients to endorse you and/or write a recommendation. I think recommendations are still important; I use them all the time. But how do I get them? I ask! It's just the way it is. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. REUVEN: Right. Right. CHUCK: I have another question for you, I have the free account on LinkedIn, I haven't paid for it. Are there reasons to upgrade to paid? WAYNE: Yeah, there are reasons to upgrade to paid. My latest user survey says that about 15% are paying, 85% are still free. Do you know when it's time for you to upgrade because what's going to happen is you're going to ask for a feature, and LinkedIn is going to pop a screen up that says "You want upgrade?" If that starts happening consistently when you try to hit a certain feature, like let's say you love so you searches, and you get 3 of those under free account and you ask for a fourth one, a screen will pop up and say "I can give you more of those, you just got to pay." If that happens, you're maybe out of grade. Or like, Who's Viewed Your Profiles are perfect example. That's a great feature, but you're only going to see the last 5 people that looked at your profile. If that's important, when you found a way to make a living using that feature -- and believe me, people do -- then you may want to upgrade so that you can see that full list. To me, it will become fairly obvious when it's time for you to upgrade. Most people don't upgrade at least as they're going from the beginner phase towards the intermediate. Once you get to be an intermediate user, you're going to find one or two of these features that you go, "You know what? This feature is worth the $15 a month, I'm going to do it." CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. REUVEN: What's some of the features? Can you name a few things that are worth the money in your book? WAYNE: The ones that I love -- I'm on the free account, by the way, and I stay on the free account because I teach a lot of beginnner classes, and I don't want to confuse people. But if I wasn't teaching this beginner classes, I would upgrade for "Who's Viewed My Profile", I would upgrade for "More Introductions", and I would upgrade for "Safe Searches", and then lastly, I would upgrade so that I could use the "Advanced People Search" where you can ask for a certain size of a business. So if I look for presidents of certain kind of company that I can at least get rid of the really small ones that probably don't have big enough sales staff to hire me, that kind of thing. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. When I was reading your book, it seems like you have a pretty cohesive path through things. It's like, "You need to do these things so you can be found. Here's how you find the people you want. Here's how you put your profile together the right way," and things like that. Over all, it seems like you've got kind of this plan for taking full advantage of LinkedIn. Can you kind of summarize the main points of that? WAYNE: Yeah. The main points are -- and in this order, too -- make sure that your profile has the correct keywords in the right spots, and then lots of descriptive stories about your experiences and what you're trying to accomplish. Make sure that you got a good profile. Once you have that, then the next thing to do is start strategically connecting with folks. You're going to go with 200 people from your past, from college, the search you go to, or whatever. If those people are important, go get them. But then, once you fill your profile and go check, start using features like Alumni, People You May Know, Advanced People Searching to start finding some more people in the space that would help move your business forward, if that's what you're trying to do, or help you find your job. Like in my case, we'll stick with the radio show, I look beyond more radio shows so I can get more exposure with people all over the world about my book and what I do. Well, I find those people, but I know the first thing they do is they go to my profile -- my profile, I think it's pretty stellar -- they learn about me, and then they come back. So the key is, good profile, the great keywords in the right spots, and then begin your proactive journey of adding connections, joining the right groups. But while you're on those groups, you continue and look for connections. The second part of this, the whole connection thing is, think about it this way: Connections on LinkedIn are the gas in the tank. If you've got 35 recorded connections, or maybe even 120 connections, and you think that you're going to go way down the road for a long, long time, that's probably not enough connections, unless they're the very, very best connections you could ever find and that's all the people that you could ever want or meet. But for the most part, most of us that are trying to have bigger businesses and grow our relationships to sort of help more people and do more business, the journey shouldn't end to finding more people because I'm not doing business with everybody I'd like to. CHUCK: Yup, absolutely. It's funny, too, because you keep coming back to the Search. WAYNE: Yeah, the Search thing -- it's funny because that was my "Aha!" moment. That took me from not wanting anything to do with social media, not just LinkedIn, no social medias. When I did that first seach, I said, "Oh, my gosh! That's hot!" What's interesting is that Search, learning that Search feature was the first way we made some money here in this office, where at your business when I'm still unloading by using the Advanced People Search. So I saw it come together and make us some money quickly. REUVEN: I was going to ask you, what were you doing before you start training people and consulting in LinkedIn? WAYNE: I still work 2 days a week as a CFO over the office furniture dealership that I own for 10 years when I discovered LinkedIn. CHUCK: That's awesome. One other thing that I want to ask you about, and this is something that I saw on the book, you mentioned to put in all of your charitable organizations that you work with and things like, it sounded like you put in like your church or whatever. What's the best way to do that? WAYNE: A couple of ways you can do that. There's a section called "Volunteer, Causes, and Experiences" where you can actually give each non-profit that you're involved in its own little section, and/or you can list it if you're a volunteer, and the time you volunteer is significant enough that you think it should be listed as a specific job that you either had or have, you could do that as well. My whole idea for that is, if you think that part of your -- the things you do for your community or the organizations that you love -- are part of your brand crossing over into your business brand where people go, "I think that's pretty cool that these business guys gives back to the community like this," then you should put it in there. If you think it's gong to be a hindrance to certain people because they're not going to like the fact that you're involved in this or that, then you got to just set a side; it's a balance. But I think most people like to see people that have balance, personalities, and give back to their communities. They wouldn't mind doing business with people that have that kind of attitude toward their community or the world. CHUCK: Yeah. One thing that Eric put in the chat, and I want to ask you about it real quick is, open source projects. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the software space, but open source projects are usually done on a volunteer basis, and the source code is just contributed for people to be able to modify as they would like. A lot of those, you do put in quite a bit of time, but I noticed that on the profile, there's a "Projects" section. Do they belong better in the Projects section, or in the Jobs section? How would you handle something like that? WAYNE: If it was important enough, too, I'd put it in both places. CHUCK: Oh! Okay. WAYNE: And here's a nice thing about it, if you'll notice on my profile, I moved one project to the very top of my profile. It's weird because it's really not a project, but it's just a way for people to start building my weekly tips about my LinkedIn strategies and tactics that I came up in the last week. I moved it to the top because I said, "Why not? It's important to me, and it's sort of the beginning of my process to begin a relationship with somebody." I think you got to somewhat be creative with some of these sections sometimes. Like I said, if it was important then they put it in both places. And if you wanted to really emphasize it, you can move any section on your profile when you're in "Edit Profile" where there's up and down arrow. CHUCK: Yeah, the up and down arrow was a good tip from the book. And then the other one was the little, I forgot what you called it, it was a little business card or something or top box that showed up at the top of your profile. WAYNE: That's just sort of a quick summary of where you've been or what you're doing and what you're looking to do. CHUCK: One other question I have is, I've recently decided to grow some facial hair, does that mean I need a new profile picture? WAYNE: I think your picture should be as current as it can be. Does that mean it has to change every time you shave or don't shave? I'm not so sure about that... [Laughter] WAYNE: My feeling is this, I think about it in terms of like a conference. One of the things I like to share with people is, when you go to a conference, you spend a lot of money, getting out of an airplane, you want to meet the right people that LinkedIn can be a great tool for making sure that you vet out who's going to be there. And the picture is really helpful so that you can sort of strategize and say, "Before I get out in this airplane to come back home, I'm going to meet this person, this person, this person." And if it's a current picture, you can walk across the room and say, "Hey, Charles! Nice to meet you!" "How did you know?" "Well, I got your profile right here in my pocket. I've been wanting to meet you." If can't tell who you are, then I might be disappointed; I'll probably look for the name tags at the conference. But in general, I think the key is you got to be current and reflect sort of the professional person you are, and that's about it. CHUCK: Awesome. Do you guys have any other questions for Wayne? JEFF: Yeah, I had one on groups. You mentioned to take advantage of groups and try to be in your 50 groups. So this might be related to the spamming it give from their crew dresses' mass email be something about a technology I've been using almost a decade. But so with groups, a lot of the ones that I'm interested in, like Freelance or Rails, there just seems to be so much junk in those groups. Most of the people just phishing their business or some other kind of spam. Do you just ignore those groups and try to find smaller groups? Or, do you just get in because of that size and deal with it or ignore it? WAYNE: I think it's a "Yeah" in both. In other words, you should look for the groups that you can get the most out of in relationship to not as much spam, good conversations, great discussions because, basically, the manager's doing their job. But you should also, because there's 50, find a way to just be in some bigger ones especially if they're still in your space but they're big, and then turn off those emails. So there's sort of 2 things going on: You're going to have the groups that you want to be in and they're good and the conversations are right and there are not a lot of spam. But then, they are just going to be some big honking groups that still have the right people that are going to help you in exposure and your ability to communicate and their ability to find you and you find them. Turn off the emails, and it's just getting you another benefit of a group with a different strategy. JEFF: Alright. I sort of assume you're going to answer it that way, but I want to ask anyways because the groups, I don't know. A lot of the groups I'm in, I basically categorize them all as worthless. They either are nothing or a bunch of spam folks. But so the second question was, you said to upgrade for the ability to see more than the last 5 people that viewed your profile. What would you do with that information when you had it? Just reach out to them and say, "Hey, I saw you checking my profile, what are you looking for? How can I help you?" kind of thing? WAYNE: Yeah, that's perfect! And just to get back, I want to answer your group thing, if I were you then, I would start looking at other people's profiles that you respect in your industry and see what groups they're in. But then, I would also go into groups directory and use keywords and see if you can filter out of maybe 10 or 15 or 20 in your groups and just sort of recycle on and see if you can land at some better spaces. But on the idea about Who Viewed Your Profile, I totally agree with the idea that if somebody looked at your profile and you looked at that list, and then you looked at the profiles that were interesting, that it behooves you to reach out to that person and say just that, "I saw you looked at my profile, I looked at yours. I help organizations like yours, can we have a cup of coffee? Or, you want a chat for a few minutes?" I'm telling you, the people that know what they're doing on LinkedIn, that tool is their number 1 business development tool. [Crosstalk] WAYNE: Just think about it. Nobody just spend Sunday afternoon looking at random profiles. Somebody's on your profile because one or two things are happening. Either some friend said, "Go look at Wayne's profile, he's a really good LinkedIn trainer," and that's all they say. The next thing you know, they pop up in their VP of sales somewhere, and I don't know why; they've got a friend sent them, but my friend didn't call me. Or, there's a referral brewing. Or, you have the right keywords in a Search, and you came up in a Search. One of those two things happened probably. So now, it's your job not to just sit and wait for the phone to ring, but go "Hey, this person's stalking me. It must be something brewing, I'm going to contact them." CHUCK: Are you sure it's not because I showed up in the people you might know and they saw my picture and said, "I think he's handsome..." [Reuven laughs] WAYNE: It could be that. But I usually, "Charles here is different, better-looking dude than me..." [Laughter] CHUCK: I don't know! I think you have more hair than I do. REUVEN: [Laughs] I definitely found, though, that when I look at the "Who's been looking at my profile" and there's someone from, say, a high-tech company and I don't know the person, it's not unsual for me to get a call from that person in the next day or two saying, "So, we're looking for a contract programmer. We're looking for some consulting." And if I look at their profile, then I have a little more information, sort of as ammunition for when they make that call. WAYNE: Yeah. I think you've done your homework, that's for sure. CHUCK: That leads me to another question and that is, you've talked a lot about the keywords, is there anyway to know what searches people they're finding you with? And what searches people should be finding you with? WAYNE: If you have a paid account, then one of the things they give you when you click Who's Viewed Your Profile, are the ways that people landed on your profile. It will show you this many people landed there just from your name, this many people landed there because you had Rails, this many people have for me LinkedIn trainer. So you'll be able to learn that, if you do the upgrade. CHUCK: Okay. Yeah, that's a really interesting piece of data. I'm trying to decide how many people, by looking at my profile, I should have before I really care to upgrade. But I guess it only takes one or two turning at the clients to make it worth it. WAYNE: What you got to do is just for a little while, just stay on top of the 5 and try to do some reach outs and see if in the next couple of weeks, you could turn some of that into maybe business or potential business, then you'll say to yourself, "Dang! I better do this upgrade." JEFF: That's a good idea. CHUCK: Yeah, I like it. How many hours do you usually spend on LinkedIn every week finding people that you want to connect to. WAYNE: Oh, you don't want to ask me that. [Laughter] CHUCK: How many hours should I spend then? [Laughs] WAYNE: You could tell I'm addicted so I'm not the right guy to ask. But here's what the survey says -- I do a survey every year of the people that follow me -- last year, 500 people took the survey. And it's 3 quarters of the people are still spending 2 hours or under a week on LinkedIn. So it's not this 8-hour a week thing. On the other hand, which is interesting, the 25% that are more than 2 hours is getting bigger every survey I do because I think some people are really saying, "I got to spend half-hour a day because it gets me where I want to go." CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. WAYNE: But we all know that it would be better up to 2 hours is spent during a baseball game or a golf outing on Sunday, but if it's spent 20-minutes a day because in social media, people expect that you'd get back to them a little quicker than the good old days of snail mail. CHUCK: Yeah, it makes sense. The other thing that I have is, when you reached out to people, do you usually reach out to them through LinkedIn? Or, if you can get an email address or a phone number, do you go that way? WAYNE: That's a great question. What I dread, a lot of people talking, and even LinkedIn admitted that one time, that if you send a message through LinkedIn, it has a 30% higher open rate. CHUCK: Oh, really? WAYNE: And think about why that would be, Charles, think about it. Because number 1, there's some affinity between you and them, either you're in a group together or you're connected. Or, it's higher because if you think, when you send them a message on LinkedIn, it lands in 2 different inboxes, doesn't it? CHUCK: Uhm-hmm. WAYNE: One of those inboxes is less busy. Which one? The LinkedIn inbox; it's a lot less busy than your email. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. WAYNE: So you get like a 2 for 1. My suggestion is, always through LinkedIn because I think your name and your subject line, they'll show off twice in the same day, and you'll never know which tool the guy's on or not on. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. JEFF: Speaking of tools, is there any way to deal with LinkedIn other than their website? CHUCK: I have their iPhone App. WAYNE: I guess I don't understand the question. CHUCK: Are there any third-party application you can use for LinkedIn? REUVEN: There is an API for it, I know. But I don't know much about it or how may people use it. WAYNE: I know that certain companies like a salesforce has a specific integration. But I know all those people are paying money to be integrated like that. I know that you can integrate Hootsuite with LinkedIn both to your personal or status updates, and your company page updates. JEFF: Okay, cool! CHUCK: Alright. Well, I think we're just about out of time. Are there any other areas of LinkedIn that we haven't talked about that we really need to cover before we wrap this up? WAYNE: We didn't talk about Status Updates, and it's one of my pet peeves these days because people are just missing the marketing opportunity behind that. If you think about it, it's a way to be in front of an audience except that is selective to be in front of you, and yet people are not using that. So I'm always encouraging people to use that. The other thing that we didn't talk about at all is about the ability to have a company page. Even guys like you that are solopreneurs like myself, you ought to think about having a company page if for nothing else, but that it will show up in the first -- if somebody Googles your company name, even if it's a company of one -- it's going to be on the first page or the top of the second page on your Google search. So I think you want to try to grab that if you can. And if you add some products and services to that company page, that will also show up very high in a Google search, so there is some nice marketing opportunities out of LinkedIn company page. Once again, it's free; no charge. I think you got to grab your space and sort of get started with that as well. Those are couple of things that I usually like to share with people if we haven't touched on it before. CHUCK: Nice. Well, you realize I'm going to have to go back and listen to this episode and spend a week or two fixing everything in LinkedIn now [Laughs]. WAYNE: It seems like whenever I talk to people, they got a big to-do list, I feel bad about that [Laughs]. CHUCK: Oh, don't feel bad because honestly, the only reason I do it is because I see value in it. WAYNE: Good. That's good. I enjoyed being out with you, guys. It was fun! CHUCK: Great! Well, we're going to go ahead and get into the picks then. Reuven, do you want to start this off? REUVEN: Sure. I have 2 main picks for this week, both will have to do, again, with lecturing and slides. I decided a few days ago that I'm getting a little annoyed with working with Keynote to do all of my slides for my lectures and talks about programming. And I decided that, as someone who uses Emacs all the time for absolutely everything, I'm sure there's a way to connect org mode with slides. Sure enough, I've discovered what many other people have discovered, which is Eric Meyer's "S5 Slide System" and that there's an "org mode export to S5". I just have been playing with it over the last day or so, and I'm blown away by how incredibly easy it is to have text and F-Code, I have them come out nicely. I'm going to have play with it a little more before switching to it completely, but it just completely, completely changes everything for my perspective for programming talks. And there's one tiny little sort of mini-pick, "Backups". My hard disk is on a flask legs, and it's not scaring me nearly as much as it did in the last few times this happened because I can be confident my backups are there, they're working. So I encourage everyone who does not to already backup religiously, fanatically to do so, and then you can also be a happy person like me. CHUCK: What do you use for backups? REUVEN: I have 2 disks to which are backup. I have a Mac so I use Time Machine so it's continuously backing up whenever I'm at home onto one disk, and then I have another disk that I do Carbon Copy Cloner once a day. So when I sleep at night, it clones. The reason I do that is I used to just have the Time Machine backup, and then basically my disk died, and I discovered how long Time Machine takes to restore a whole disk, and it was just painful. So I got this advice from a friend of mine actually, he said, "Listen, if you clone your whole disk everyday, then Time Machine can just refill in the gaps between your last clone and what you're missing." CHUCK: Right, because it ain't just right splits instead of figuring out what the files are. REUVEN: Yeah, exactly. It's basically running rsync behind the scenes from what I can tell. CHUCK: Awesome. Curtis, what are your picks? CURTIS: I've got 2 today! First one is for my ID of choice, which is PHPStorm, or I guess it's RubyMine or a variation of that for you Ruby folks. It just kind of with a whole bunch of tutorials, like a whole series of them, which is excellent because there's always be things you do not know in your editor of choice. And then "My Daily SCRUM" which is my friend's Daily SCRUM videos that he's doing as he works on a project and tries to find work there. Funny and interesting as he codes in the car to get away from a crying child and stuff. CHUCK: [Laughs] Okay. Eric, what are your picks? ERIC: This past week, I've been doing a lot of writing, so my pick is a writing tool that I've been kind of experimenting with and I'm actually really enjoying, it's called "Scrivener". I'll have the link in the show notes because I don't even think I'm pronouncing it right. CURTIS: Scrivener! ERIC: Yes, it's that thing. CHUCK and CURTIS: Scrivener! ERIC: It's awesome just because I've always written my books as like open it up on Word or a Textfile and just dumping words into it. With this, I can kind of jump around a lot better. Probably this week, I'll start editing and that's when I'm going to be able to really use a lot of the tools where you can like look at chapters 1, 5, and 7 all at once in a flow to kind of see if they flow together. So, it's nice. I'm using the Linux version, which is actually in a public beta, and it's actually working flawless for me - backing my stuff up and exporting it every time I use it just in case. It's pretty great. And the Mac version supposed to have a ton more features because it's a newer version. CHUCK: Nice. Alright, Jeff, what are your picks? JEFF: I only have one this week and it's, "Bartender". It's a Mac App, and for me, I have a 24-inch screen and the left and right side of my menu bar in the Mac were almost touching so it's time to do with other craft in my menu. Bartender puts it in a little ellipsis and gets most of the junk of my menu bar, which doesn't fix the problem, but it's a nice bandaid. CURTIS: Get hiding the problem. CHUCK: Yeah, I heard about that on Mac Power Users...sounds really cool. Alright, I've got a couple of picks. Of course my mind went blank the second I said that...I guess we'll let Wayne go first [Laughs] I don't remember what my picks are. So Wayne, go ahead. WAYNE: Okay. I appreciate you guys asking me. There's a book that I'd recommend anybody who wants to really start figuring out how to have their own platform. With all these social media tools, it's a question of "What do we do with them? How do we integrate them? How do we build our own personal, professional platform?" And the guy by the name of Michael Hyatt wrote a book called just that, "Platform", that I recommend highly. He breaks it down to the kind of microphone you should use if you podcast and all the WordPress plugins that he likes, so he can be very technical at times. But other times, he's able to understand the whole marketing theory behind each of us having our own business platform. And boy, it has really helped me and I know freelancers, solopreneurs like you guys were all blessed now with the fact that we can have our own voice and channels to do what we want to do because of social media and he sort of brings it altogether. CHUCK: Yeah, it's a good book. I've cracked it, I haven't read it all the way through. But I really like it also, and I guess I'll pick his podcast, "This Is Your Life" - terrific, terrific show. I'm also a member of his "Platform University", where he publish his videos. The videos are also really, really good. I think the last one was him and Dave Ramsey. WAYNE: Yeah, that was great, wasn't it? CHUCK: I haven't had a chance to watch it, I've been really, really busy. Between the family things that keep coming up and work, I just haven't enough time. But I'm so looking forward to that; I'm a big Dave Ramsey fan. WAYNE: Yeah, you'll love it. Michael Hyatt is a smart guy. CHUCK: Yeah, he really is. He was the CEO or Chairman or something of Thomas Nelson Publishing, and now he's kind of chasing his own thing. I really want to go to his Launch Conference that he and...I forgot the other guy's name. But they put it together out in Colorado. But yeah, great, great stuff. So, I guess I'll pick those. Did you have anything else, Wayne? Or, should we wrap up the show? WAYNE: No, I'm fine! CHUCK: Alright, well, let's go ahead and wrap up the show then. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you all next week!

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