The Freelancers' Show 111 - Building and Managing Your Portfolio

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The panelists discuss building and managing your portfolio.


CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to episode 111 of the Freelancers’ Show. This week on our panel we have Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Good day! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi. CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from, and there’s no special guest this week. We’re going to be talking about building and managing your portfolio. Now what inspired me to start this conversation is actually an email I got from somebody you might have heard of before. There's this guy, Eric Davis, I signed up for his email list and I get an email from him every week. So I got Portfolio Part I last week and I got Portfolio Part II about an hour ago – I didn’t realize there was a part 2 until I got it, but he’s got a lot of great advice in there and I thought that maybe we could talk about how do you build your portfolio. This also was really related to another question that I get frequently and that is, ‘I can’t find a job so I decided to go freelance, but I don’t have a portfolio’ or ‘I don’t have anything to show my clients.’ I'm really curious to see what everybody thinks. I know that Curtis has done quite a bit of work and I haven't really looked at his consulting site in a while, so I don’t even remember if there is a portfolio on there. CURTIS: I just relaunched last week, so, yes it is, and it has a totally different look since last week. CHUCK: Where do we find it? CURTIS: and as of this recording, there's a one or two bugs that I launched with intentionally, because I just didn’t feel like [inaudible]. CHUCK: Right, so you’ve got that latest work section in there, and then you can click on Our Work – that looks really good. CURTIS: Thank you. CHUCK: Can we talk a little bit about how you wanna display your portfolio? Let’s assume that you’ve built some stuff, and then we’ll talk about how you build your portfolio if you feel like you don’t have a strong one. How did you decide to put this together? I mean, did you just stick the images up there and put a link to your work, is there more to it than that? CURTIS: There's more to it than that. I wrote this originally a while ago – I didn’t really launch it because I wasn’t happy with it, but my original copy was pretty waffley. Like, “Oh, I built them a site and it was cool” and that was about it. Or else I tried to focus a lot more on “here are their problems and here’s what we did to solve them.” You can’t get into deep technical detail, but it’s a clear, “this is the problem, this is how we solved it.” CHUCK: That makes sense. You do the work on WordPress, so most of the stuff that you work on and stuff, it’s going to be out there. CURTIS: Yeah, there's a lot that is. There's one or two things – there's one client that’s in my portfolio; I don’t really show a lot because he wants to keep it. He feels the industry is very competitive and his competitive advantage is his internal process and we built some of that. I am allowed to show that to customers through Screencast or screenshare, but I don’t show a lot of it in the actual portfolio site. CHUCK: So how do you explain to people what you did? I mean, most of the time when I'm working on stuff, I either build the entire thing or maybe I contributed to parts of it but I didn’t do the entire thing. CURTIS: You start with the problems you solved, right? CHUCK: Mm-hm. CURTIS: So on one of my clients, I think – yeah, they're on here. Wakefield-Scearce Galleries, they're an antique store that I worked for a little while ago now; we do some updates. Their problem was the site was just plain broken. The guy who built it beforehand – guy or girl, I don’t remember now who – had no idea about one or two foundational concepts in WordPress, like how to work with a template, and so it was all broken. There's 300 301 redirects, so when I talk about that one, we talk about solving that issue and then cleaning up a ton of the code. There's huge portions that they had to hand code if they wanted to update it, and we moved all of that into updating itself for them, or easily updateable through the WordPress [inaudible]. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm a little curious what Eric’s take is on some of this stuff, because I'm assuming you’ve built plugins for Redmine that didn’t necessarily have an interface you could show off. So do you just explain what it does, or do you -? ERIC: That’s a good point. I did my portfolio a bit differently, because of my stuff’s back in the most of my stuff might have a UI, it might not be something that I actually coded on the UI. I dig more into the problem the customer has and then what I did, how I solved it, and so even if there's nothing I can show – like Curtis was saying, like a business process – I could say we set up a business process that took, whatever like, increase the leads from 10 to 50 a week or something, and the big thing for me is trying to show the result. So it’s not necessarily the ‘what I built,’ but it’s the ‘what that thing actually achieved.’ And so even if you do back end stuff or stuff that’s not really visually nice to look at – if it’s just code that runs on a server, you can still talk about the results you did and that’s actually the really big thing a lot of clients are looking for. CHUCK: That makes sense. I really do like the visual aspect though, if I can get it, but I can definitely see that. ERIC: Yeah, like there's one of the first projects I wrote, it’s a command-line script in .NET that basically you gave it a different parameters and it just generated kind of [inaudible] code, because it was a huge system, so it generated 15 different classes or something for their application that I needed. It was mostly the glue code that saved them from having to type it out and making stupid, little mistakes. And for that, it’s a script you run and it just creates files, so all I did was actually I ran the script with the dashtash help or something to kinda print out how you use it – I just took a screenshot of that – and then I explained how this script was saving programmers hours of time each time they had to add to their system, and how it would prevent bugs from typos and that sort of thing. So even though that was just an automation script, I still made a visual component just by taking a screenshot of it. CHUCK: I like it. One other thing I wanna ask you about – and this is something that I'm seeing on Eric’s portfolio because he’s listed a lot of open source software. CURTIS: Yeah, I haven't done that although I certainly could. I've worked in most major WordPress e-commerce platforms that are around, so I certainly could add that. ERIC: Yeah, I mean, I've done – I've been doing a lot of curational [inaudible] because in the past I had over a hundred open source Redmine plugins. And the number, a hundred, and the fact that I knew what I was doing, was good, but the individual plugins weren’t really that important to each new, prospective client. And so I’ve actually kind of curated it and picked the biggest plugins that have the biggest impact or the most complexity, and then the rest of them I kinda lumped into, “I also do work on Redmine plugins such as x, y, z.” I found that’s a bit better because you can really overwhelm a client if you just throw everything you’ve ever done at them. CURTIS: Yeah, something I'm looking at doing is I've built a few plugins that I use consistently on my clients’ sites when we’re doing development and staging, or sorry, live and staging environments. So that automatically shuts down all the WordPress emails and logs them off instead of sending them to development, so you don’t accidentally send 20,000 emails. I'm thinking about highlighting a bunch of those in our work as well. It’s things that I would do or use in their site to make the process easier for them. CHUCK: Yeah. One other thing that I'm curious about with portfolios that comes up frequently with me is that I've done some work for people that had me sign an NDA. It wasn’t one of those horrible ones that make it so you can’t work in this town ever again, but a lot of times you can’t disclose that you did work on their project, or for them. Some of the work that I've done is good work and I wanna show people that I did it. Is there a way to really deal with that, or do you just tell people no when they want you to sign an NDA if you wanna put the work up on your portfolio? ERIC: My contract has provision that says I can take strictly confidential information and show it on my portfolio and that sort of thing. I've had clients that strike it out and because of their situation, it’s a valid concern. What I've done - and actually I have another project that I'm trying to get out of my portfolio – is to –. Almost every project has a code name, so I’ll use the code name and I’ll talk in general terms about the project – what it did, who it was for. I wouldn’t use necessarily screenshots or maybe I'd do screenshots of the code or something, but you kind of anonymize it enough and then you can send it to the client, “Hey, I wanna do this; I wanna put this on my portfolio, it’s important. It kinda helps me talk it up, how it’s a big thing for your business” and get the green light from them. If they release it and say, “Yeah, that's fine for us” then that can work around the NDA and there shouldn’t be any legal clients with it. CURTIS: Yeah, I have my one client I just send him a copy of a site before it was officially live and he approved and say, “Yeah, that’s fine with me.” He was just concerned about his business process, not necessarily that I showed that I worked with him; he understands that I want to show that. I only ever once or twice signed ‘well, you can never show this.” CHUCK: Right, so you just talk to him and then maybe change the header, to say ‘My Corp’ or something and you just kind of described what you did without actually giving away the details that they care about? CURTIS: It really depends. I find a lot of the NDA projects are really not all that interesting, and so – it’s just a site, whatever. It goes in or it doesn’t, it’s not that big a deal. CHUCK: Yeah. CURTIS: It’s not like they have some foundational new thing that no one ever thought of before. Ten people thought of it, and we’re just signing the NDA because they want it signed. ERIC: Yeah, I mean, [inaudible] generalize, like one of them that I talked to a client about – I basically helped build a social network, and I build a lot of e-marketing and messaging aspects, which included email delivery. None of that’s really NDA-able. I mean, that’s basic stuff, so that I can put in my portfolio. It just depends on if I get into processes or results, especially screenshots – stuff like that, where you gotta mock up some dummy data, use a different color scheme or something like that. Sometimes you might just be able to use the actual site and send it to them. They're like, “Yeah, we’ll just let you put this a little bit in your portfolio. We don’t care about the NDA.” CHUCK: Right. ERIC: It’s all about communication. CHUCK: So one other thing that I'm curious about – I am not a design guy. I mean, when I have a good-looking site that I worked on, the look and feel isn’t my work; it’s the end of the line code that actually makes cool things happen when you click, type or whatever on it. So I don’t feel bad putting the screenshot up, but I almost feel like I need to disclaim, “Hey, I didn’t do the design on this. I just made it work.” CURTIS: Yeah, you did the workflow, right? So like a Screencast would be a good way to show like you did this workflow; this is why it works well, because you built the underlying code. ERIC: Yeah, I mean, [inaudible]. Maybe you put it in a way where you worked with the design created from another designer, or you implemented their design in code. That way, it’s not just you took someone’s work, but you took it and it shows that you play well with others and all that and then the final result is this working website. And yes, Screencast would be a great way, because they could see the actual functionality with the design. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. So are there other things that you should be putting in your portfolio? Things that people don’t usually think about that would go in there and look nice in your list? ERIC: I've got a lot of open source stuff in mine, because I was a big part of my business. In the beginning, I even have an actual portfolio item called open source, which is like the catchall. And so if I have a few patches to, say, Rails or whatever, I’ll include Rails in there. That way, people can see like I've done work on big open source projects and little ones, but I'm not actually running it or am not a major player in it, but it’s kind of a way to transit like the GitHub commit history into –. Like, okay, here’s the business [inaudible], here’s what I did, here’s how it helped the Rails project – that sort of thing. CURTIS: Yeah. I've linked my open source report card as well, which, like just parses GitHub data to see your contributions, right? CHUCK: Yeah, I guess that makes sense, too. Now, one thing I did notice on just clicking through you guys’ portfolios, it did seem like with Curtis’s, when you click on his and you go into a particular project like there's a page for it, and with Eric’s is more of a list – “Here’s some of the open source stuff.” The header’s aren’t links; it’s just, “Hey, I patched Ruby on Rails, I've worked on Redmine.” Do you find that one approach works better than the other? I'm kind of wondering what [crosstalk]. CURTIS: I never tried both – I never tried AB testing on both, so I don’t know. I would like to think that even as developers, people are drawn to pretty things, right, so they’ll see something. “Oh, that site looks nice and he worked on that.” ERIC: I was going to say, for me, the open source ones are not all like – I guess as far as the list, it’s just little snippets versus an actual project where I have different sections and screenshots. CHUCK: Mm-hm. CURTIS: Yeah, I can certainly see, say, having a single open source project and a whole bunch of stuff that I've done for open source in there, but I'd still try to find a pretty screenshot for it. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. I wanna get into how to build a portfolio a little bit; this is something I'm a little more familiar with. I never actually did put a portfolio section on my consulting website when I had one working and it didn’t really seem to matter. But my portfolio tended to be more along the lines of, ‘teach me to code,’ which are tutorial Screencasts and Ruby Rogues and JavaScript Jabber and iPhreaks and this show, where it shows that I know what I'm talking about, but it doesn’t give them specific examples of where I've done something that looks like what they want. So how do I go about, and I have some things that I could put in my portfolio, but let’s say that I'm brand new and I don’t have a platform, and I don’t have a list of projects that I've built. What kinds of things do you do to build that portfolio? ERIC: This is actually that second email you’ve got on my newsletter. I've done this myself recently. If you don’t have any projects or you're getting started, or like in my case where I'm transitioning out of Redmine into other areas, you kinda wanna look and figure out like –. You have an idea what clients would come to your site; what do they want, what are they looking for? In my case, they're going to probably want me to develop in Ruby on Rails, so I have something in my portfolio about that. If you're new, that might be contributing to Rails, or contributing to Rails, gems, or something like that. Another thing might be like what kind of problems do you solve, or what industries do you work in. In my case, I'm trying to get into a lot of building marketing software, so what I actually did a couple of weeks ago I guess is I sat down –. And I've been doing a lot of AB tests and I've been getting deep into that – I'm like, “Well, this program I'm using to kind of run the AB test is kinda buggy and I don’t really like the way it works,” so I spent two or three days to build my own version of an AB test and calculator, put it on my site, made it free, whatever, but I was able to write that up in my portfolio and I talked about how it’s an internal app, but I use it because I had a problem and I think other people have a problem, and kinda wrote it in such a way so if a client comes to my site they’ll be like, “Oh, look! Eric knows Rails. And oh, look, he’s done stuff with AB testing and he’s done stuff with conversion optimizations, so he might be a good person to talk to about this project.” And so you can use open source or you can use internal apps for yourself, or you can make dummy apps where you might mock up a logo for an airline – all of those are kinda ways where you can build a portfolio and as long as you kind of disclose it like, ‘this is a project for myself’ or ‘this isn’t for an actual client,’ that’s going to be fine. Most clients just care that you can do the work that they need and that you're getting results for them. CHUCK: Yeah, I do like the approach of, ‘this is stuff I did for me; this is stuff I did for a client.’ I also like the approach of listing the open source stuff you’ve contributed to or written. There are a lot of different ways that you can actually build that up, are any of those your favorite? ERIC: Well I was going to say, one more thing is I had this problem at the beginning. I put everything I did into my portfolio, and like I said earlier, that's overwhelming. So when you're getting started, if you can get four, maybe five, solid portfolio items – I mean ‘solid’ in that they're complete; they talk about the problem and not as in ‘it’s a six-month project.’ If you get four or five of those, that’s really all you need, and it could be just a string of open source contributions to a project. It doesn’t have to be you took over the project, or you rewrote it in a different language or whatever; it could just be that you fixed a couple dozen bugs in one little area. CHUCK: Curtis, do you have any thoughts on this, on how to build your portfolio? CURTIS: I did a lot of it in the beginning with Screencast, so I have dug deep into I was talking about WordPress Screencasts. I'm looking to move in into I guess a little more of conversion consulting as well, that with the e-commerce work that I do, so I'm going to be recording some Screencasts coming up on presentations that I've done around ‘Are Sliders Effective?’ and ‘Effective e-commerce design.’ I’ll move towards that as well; I'm going to put those up on my site. ERIC: That’s another thing – presentations and Screencasts, stuff like that, they're not typical portfolio items, but they are showing that you're an expert, you know what you're doing, and those can all kind of build the client’s trust in you. CURTIS: Yeah, well I have to say that the client I talked to earlier – Wakefield-Scearce Galleries – they came to me because of a Screencast, because I solved one of the problems they had in the Screencast, and they said, “We’ve got a whole bunch more; let’s get them fixed” and it was a really easy client to land, because they already trusted that I could solve one problem. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've actually had people contact me because I gave a talk at a conference, and oddly enough, they contacted me about something that really didn’t have anything to do with what I talked about. CURTIS: In that case, they feel like they know you, right? Especially if they’ve seen you in person. CHUCK: Yeah. CURTIS: You can find that in a Screencast; people feel more like they know you when they’ve heard you talk. Your idiosyncrasies come through even if you try to push for a really as high a production, you'll still get the little things that you normally say in your sentences. CHUCK: I get that a lot with the podcast too. “I feel like I know you already!” So you can put conference talks, you can put Screencasts, you can put your own software in there – is there any particular order that you should put them in? Eric: Alphabetical, by the third letter. CURTIS: [Chuckles] I actually organized mine by the ones that I would like to show off first, so in my site right now, the top items are the ones that I wanted to show off the most. After the first two or three they just kinda go however they were entered. The first two or three are the ones that I really want to show off, primarily. ERIC: Same here. Say your prospective clients come into your site, they have the 30 seconds of attention or whatever, and so you wanna show the strongest things first and in a way kinda hook them and get them to read more and learn more about you. For my case, I actually have a bunch of stuff in my portfolio, but I've actually selected the top four projects that I highlight, and those are the ones that I try to push them to, but then I have the others in there if they wanna really dig in and kinda see more history. And so it’s based on what kinda clients you wanna attract, what they are looking for and maybe even highlight like a really complex or technical project to show that you can do big things. It just depends on what your brand and marketing wants to be. CHUCK: Do you try and direct  people to another, let’s say, like a ‘contact me’ or something-page from your portfolio, or do you just put it out there so that they could see what you can do, and then they’ll click the contact link in the header, or whatever? CURTIS: I think it’s pretty crucial in your contact page to have your phone number as well; it’s something that I've always included. I'm looking at kinda doing more of a CRM and tracking my leads, and kinda seeing when they're warm and stuff, but I'm not sure what it mainly costs in those things. I'm looking at Hatchbuck, I think it’s called. I can get the link on the show notes; that's one that I'm looking at that would track all the leads on my site, track your interaction with my content, and then emails as well. ERIC: I mean, basically it’s standard conversion stuff. You always want some action for someone to take on a page. You don’t want them to read about your portfolio, get excited about working with them, and question what to do next then make them feel dumb for not knowing, and then leave your site. So, a contact form is good; even a little line like make it custom for each portfolio item, because you don’t really have that many. It’s like, “Hey, if you want something similar to this – link – contact me and we can talk.” Or in my case, I have people sign up for my client services newsletter where – I don’t remember – it’s six or seven different emails that kind of introduces me. But anything, whatever you want should kind of your main action on your website, put that on your portfolio or your portfolio items. That’s why you have a website, is to kinda get people to do that. CURTIS: Yeah, right on my process page, I have a contact form. As I read through it, there's a contact form right in there, so I don’t have to go anywhere else as well. I should add more directive stuff to the portfolio items too. CHUCK: That’s pretty interesting. So do you guys ever refer people to your portfolio page, or is it something that people find when they come to your page? CURTIS: It depends on how they interact with me, right? So I’ll highlight – say, a new client comes to you just through email. I’ll highlight one or two projects that are most pertinent to them, and they’d ask if they could see more, “here’s my portfolio” if they wanna look at some more stuff we’ve done. CHUCK: How about you, Eric? ERIC: I mean basically, a lot of people come to my homepage, like most sites, and then some end up going to ‘portfolio’, some of them – like my homepage is set up to talk about my services and what I do for clients, so a lot of people just visit the homepage and then jump into the list; they don’t actually go and browse around. I think I send people to the portfolio page as part of my ‘getting to know me’ sequence, and that’s more of like ‘here’s some of the work I've done; for more details, here’s the portfolio stuff.’ Sending people to my portfolio isn’t really a goal I have; it’s more there just for trust building. If someone has an objection, they can go there and kind of say, “Oh, okay. He knows what he’s talking about.” CHUCK: Yeah. Are there any other aspects of portfolios that we should talk about? CURTIS: Using directive language and not passive, which I talked a bit about at the beginning. When I first put a portfolio and had a friend read it and they're like, “This is terrible!” They talked to me through a bunch of this stuff and I said, “You're right; it is totally terrible.” It was not all about “I did this kind of cool thing maybe, you should come get me to do something maybe cool for you, too.” It’s really a sales page, like you're selling yourself and so being directive and confident about it, and writing well about it is an important part to proving that you’ve actually done what you're talking about. ERIC: Yeah, there’s two other things. One, if you can get your client to give you a testimonial – which you should try to do anyway – if you can put that on the portfolio page for their project, that’s a huge trust-builder. And the second thing – I mean, we’ve been talking about portfolios as in the context of ‘these are the projects I worked on.’ I actually had, and it’s changed, but I had a client service or a client portfolio of ‘here’s the clients I’ve worked with.’ And that’s kinda what you see in a lot of sites where it’s just a logo dump of the big companies they worked with – that’s another good way of building trust and it shows like, “Okay, if ACME company trusted Eric, I can trust them.” And it’s that whole code, “You never get fired for buying IBM or whatever.” But having both a project-type portfolio and then a portfolio of your clients is another good thing. CHUCK: That’s interesting. Do you put them both under the same portfolio header, and then they can click on projects or companies, or –? ERIC: No, I organize it a bit differently. I have a portfolio, and then I have kind of a big, top-level navigation called client services, which is details about my services and it has a list of all my clients – current or past clients – on there, and that’s where their logos are. The portfolio’s kind of the project side and the client services is the services I provide plus that added, kind of trust stuff of the client logos. CHUCK: Yeah, that makes sense. I have worked with a few large-ish companies, and it’s nice to be able to say, “Hey, I did work for them.” Well I know this has run a little bit shorter than our episodes normally do, but unless there's more to talk about here, we should probably just do the picks. ERIC: There's one other thing which, I had a problem with this too. When you get busy, most people forget to market and all that, but another thing is as you finish projects, start building a portfolio item for them. I got to the point where I had about a year, maybe even two years of projects done that I didn’t have in my site as a portfolio, so it looked like I did a bunch of work and then I stopped working. But I was actually just so busy, I wasn’t keeping up to date. What might be good is to, once a quarter or every six months, or if you have a good process for closing out a project, make it a point to create a portfolio item about it. Even if you don’t highlight it, even if it’s one of the featured ones, creating the content and all that while it’s fresh and getting screenshots is a lot easier than coming back six months later and trying to get the app to run or whatever, so that’s a good thing. Make sure that you always have stuff you can cycle in and out. CURTIS: I always, at least, take screenshots like as soon as we’re done I’ll use Paparazzi, which is just plug in the URL and it gives the screenshots, so it’s very nice to use. CHUCK: Very nice. ERIC: Yeah. I have a Chrome plugin I can share that lets you take screenshots of pages. I use that for big sales pages like 40 pages long or whatever – it makes a one, long, image. CHUCK: Oh, cool. I need that. Alright! Well, let’s go ahead and do the picks. Curtis, do you wanna start us off with picks? CURTIS: Sure. I'm going to pick Redbooth today. I've talked about how Trello was awesome before, but for the last five or four months now, I've actually switched over to Redbooth as my full project management suite, so it does everything for me – manages all my projects and all my personal to-dos. It actually manages the grocery list my wife and I share as well. And I've also dropped Omnifocus as well; I used to use them both – Trello and Omnifocus in combination. Now, I've got everything online and I can have my admin assistant deal with stuff and my wife and I can share lists, and it’s all in one spot. CHUCK: Very nice. I do have a question about that – it sounds like kind of a team-level organization tool. The one thing that drives me a little bit crazy with Omnifocus and you can kind of do it, but can you suck in email stuff, so like if I just forward an email to it or something, can you just stick it in there? CURTIS: Yup, I've automated that. I automated through Zap here as well, and so I have all my receipts from my admin assistant, when they hit the receipt notebook in Evernote, they get sent over to the proper list from Zap here as well, and you can email it too. You have a private project as well, so it’s where I can keep all my personal stuff. And Eric was mentioning in the chat, but it used to be called TeamBox; they’ve rebranded a few months ago. CHUCK: Very nice. I’ll have to check it out. CURTIS: I’ll have to actually blog about Full Switch and how I'm automating parts of it as well. CHUCK: Cool. Eric, what are your picks? ERIC: Alright, so I got three today. First one, I got back from MicroConf last week and there's tons of information about it, but one thing that kinda came up was kind of doing – whether you have a product business, a service business, whatever, trying to do something small every day to kind of improve it, and I just happened to have this in my InstaReader and I've read it on my plane back. It’s called Small Chunks; it’s basically along the lines of the best entrepreneurs and people – founders and stuff – they aren’t doing these big, change-the-world type projects. They're doing these small little things over and over, but they're so efficient that they get through a hundred of them each day. So it’s a nice little quote; I think there's a longer blog post about it, but I’ll put the link in the show notes so you can follow and read it; it’s pretty quick reading. The second thing is that screenshot program I talked about. Looks like it’s available for Chrome, Firefox, and Safari – it’s called Awesome Screenshot. It lets you take either a screenshot of the page you see, like the visible part that’s in your browser, a selected area – like you just put a little box around something – or I always use the entire page. And I’ll actually use that to take an archive copy of my website before I do a major change or a major AB test. It’s free; it works pretty good. You can save it online to share or you can actually save it to a .PNG on your local system. And then the third, for a bit of fun, is a Youtube video called The Expert. It’s a short comedy sketch for anyone who does consulting, freelancing, or works with clients at all. You probably won’t get more than a minute into this before you start busting up laughing, so I’ll put that in the show notes. It’s definitely a good thing to wrap up the day with. CHUCK: Very nice. Alright, I'm going to make a couple of picks. I think I picked this on the show before, but I've been using Audible and I’d been listening to Platform by Michael Hyatt, and it’s been a really terrific resource for marketing, so I'm going to pick that. I don’t know if I have any other picks, so I'm just going to stop there. But it was a good discussion; I'm definitely going to need to look into what it’s going to take to get a portfolio listing for my up and coming website. Yeah, hopefully this helps some folks out. If you have some other ideas for your portfolios that you’ve used that have worked, we’d definitely be interested in hearing those, and you can actually put those into the freelancers show forum. You can go to and sign up, and we’d love to see what other ideas you guys have. [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at] [Bandwidth for this segment is provided by CacheFly, the world’s fastest CDN.  Deliver your content fast with CacheFly. 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