iPS179 Coding Bootcamps
- Coding Schools
- DevMountain 3:40: What is bootcamp?
- What the students are learning
- Cocoa Programming
- Structured environment 9:50: Alternative to bootcamp
- College for four years
- Degree vs. being self-taught 14:00: Interviewing17:10: UI Kit21:15; Marketing
- For-profit school
- Hard work on the part of the student 26:45: What bootcamps mean for education overall
- Filling a void
- A jumpstart to career
- Hard-won knowledge 35:30: Variation between bootcamps
- Young industry
- Potential issues
Andrew: Hey everybody and welcome to iPhreaks episode 179. This week on our panel we have Layne Moseley.Layne: Hello there from Utah.Andrew: I’m Andrew Madsen in Salt Lake City. It’s actually just the two of us this week. We thought we’d talk a little bit about bootcamps, about Code Schools. They’re starting to become more popular way for people to get into programming. They’re cropping up all over the country and I think there are differing opinions about the value of going to a bootcamp to learn how to program. Layne and I both have some experience with this. I think as I’ve mentioned on the show a few times lately I recently took a full-time job at DevMountain which is a bootcamp here in Salt Lake and I had been teaching there for a year and a half before that. Layne why don’t you tell us a little bit about your experience.Layne: Mine is pretty similar to you as well. It’s not my full-time job by any means but I teach a couple of time a month for a couple of hours and I’ve been doing it for about a year and a half as well. I’ve had a great experience. I’ve really enjoyed helping students that are very eager to get into this new world of software. It’s pretty great.Andrew: I’ve had a lot of fun too. I started because a friend of mine and former panelist Caleb Hicks was running the iOS program and at DevMountain and asked me to come and do it. A guest lecturer which turned into coming in basically every week, one day a week to teach. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed being there working with the students and then the opportunity came along to basically take over Caleb’s job and make it my full time thing. I did it. I fully enjoyed it.That said, I know there are some people especially experienced programmers that are skeptical of the idea of going to a bootcamp for 12 weeks and then coming up at the other end of the program because they think it takes longer than that to learn how to program. That certainly would have been my thought before I had anything to do with the bootcamp. And even now I don’t think you can become an expert in 12 weeks but I think you can get a really good start. I thought maybe we could just talk about pros and cons. Maybe a little bit about why does this become such a thing in the last few years.Layne: Yup. Absolutely. To build on that, I mean I’ve been programming for 10 years and I still feel like learning I’m how to program. The expectation that out of 12 weeks you’re going to be a programmer is sometimes for me a little hard to digest. There’s a lot into it but we’ll get into the details of my feelings there I think.Andrew: I’ve been sort of programming since I was a little kid. I started doing it really seriously and doing it as a thing that I cared about, making apps to sell, about the same as you, I don’t know 11 years ago I guess now. I feel like I’m learning every day. I feel like there are whole categories of things even in iOS development or Mac development that I don’t really know anything about. I haven’t done them before. I think only somebody who’s unrealistic would think that 12 weeks is enough to be an expert but I also think that’s maybe not what bootcamps are for.Layne: Yeah. Let’s talk about that. What is a bootcamp? What does it offer? What are the students learning? And we can focus obviously on iOS. There’s lots of bootcamps. There’s development bootcamps. There’s design bootcamps. There’s always different things. But iOS specific, Andrew, especially from your perspective, what are the students learning in 12 weeks or expected to learn?Andrew: We really, at DevMountain in particular, and I can’t really speak for other bootcamp although I have a feeling this sort of structure to some degree naturally falls out of the format but DevMountain is essentially a 12-week course, three-month course. Students are there 9:00AM-5:00PM, Monday through Friday so it’s like a full time job plus we expect them to work a lot after class.We teach them it’s really the bare fundamentals that you need to start being an iOS developer. They learn about the overall structure of iOS programs model view controller and a lot of the API’s you just absolutely have to know to be an iOS developer. UI view and buttons and labels and of course UI table view is a big part of that. We talked about how to deal with network services.We use Swift now but they learned some Objective-C because we think that’s pretty essential for an iOS developer to know both at least to one degree or another. We’re not teaching them really advanced stuff. We’re not going into depth on all the new ideas about protocol oriented programming and how Swift changes things or really hardcore algorithms or very fancy custom UI. We touch on some of these things but those are some of these more advanced are the things that take you awhile maybe even years to really feel like you have a good grasp on.Layne: It really seems to me, where a bootcamp does best is inspiration meaning giving a good enough platform or place to start from, to springboard somebody to go, “Hey, look I can actually do this.” It’s something that really so that someone can catch the vision and say, “Hey, look at this app. I conceptualize it and I built it in 12 weeks.” That I think is extremely empowering.Andrew: Certainly my experience learning to program was not through a bootcamp at all. In fact, I remember when I first started out I bought a book. Stephen Kochan’s Programming in Objective-C, 1st Edition. I read the book on my own. I seem to recall buying it trying to go through it. Like getting a few chapters in and for one reason or another, I don’t know if it is because I was overwhelmed by it or I just got busy with other things and got distracted or whatever, I was a full time college student at that time. I put it down and didn’t do anything for three months or something and I thought, “No, I really want to finish that book.” So I pick it back up and went through it again and then I did another book. I didn’t feel like I really knew anything until probably a year after I started. If I had a problem, there’s nobody I could ask. I was just like, “Oh, well screw around with it for three days and maybe you’ll figure it out.” Or post a message on CocoaDev mailing list and hope whoever answers you is nice.Layne: Yeah, absolutely.Andrew: I think that’s the thing. It makes to somebody who decide, “I’m going to learn iOS programming.” And the first day is really hard and they don’t really have anyone to turn to and you get overwhelmed, frustrated and give up maybe more easily than you should. I think a bootcamp gives you the external motivation in the sense that you have a real goal to complete and also the help you need from people who know what they’re doing to get over some of those really early hurdles.Layne: Yeah. That’s…Andrew: Oh, go ahead.Layne: Sorry. No, you keep going.Andrew: I was just going to say you mentioned that I didn’t mention this but at DevMountain we have students build actually two functioning apps. The idea is that by the time you graduate you’ve shipped two apps to the App Store. And of course they’re not million dollar apps. They’re what you’d expect from somebody who’s starting out but some of them are actually pretty good. They’re useful. We’ve even had students go on to keep working on their apps and make them into a real thing. We even have startups based on them. I definitely think, feeling like you have that skill even if you know you’re still starting out and you have a lot to learn, it’s a lot easier to keep going if you have somebody help you get to that point where it starts to become a familiar territory.Layne: Oh yeah. Absolutely. And that’s funny your stories are similar to mine. I was actually in the middle of the Cocoa Programming Guide from the Big Nerd Ranch when iOS 2 was announced. It was something I was interested in because I love Apple and I want to make Mac apps, that sounds so great. iOS 2 came out and I said, “We’ll that’s way cooler.” But back in those days there was no help. The only help was this Cocoa books. Not a lot of people we’re doing it and so it was very, very frustrating and very hard. I agree, I think having a little more structured environment is just really great for these kids, not just kids, anyone that’s doing it. It’s just a great platform. It’s a great environment. The expectation that [0:09:32.8] yourself away and focus on one thing for 12 full weeks, you really can’t learn a ton and that’s awesome.Andrew: I wonder what you think so. It seems like the alternative, somewhat say the traditional alternative to go into something like a bootcamp is to just go to college for four years. I maybe in the middle because I went to college for four years but I studied electrical engineering and actually, my area of focus is analog design not even digital. Although I did digital stuff too but it was definitely not programming. I had one semester intro to c class. The very first semester I was in school but I did not learn to program in college. If you want to be a programmer you think, “We’ll I go to college for four years and do computer science.” Do you have a computer science? I guess probably not.Layne: No. Actually I don’t. I did a few CS classes and then I went to business school and that’s when I started doing apps a lot. No I don’t have computer science. I did end up doing, it’s called Computer Information Tech. That’s the degree I ended up with. I did that because to be frank it was a little bit easier than computer science and I was trying to finish school as quickly as possible to continue my iOS career. I didn’t want to have school hold me back, if that makes sense.Andrew: It was not a deliberate thing at all. I went to school for electrical engineering because I wanted to learn it, because I wanted to be an engineer and I have been doing hardware for a long time as a hobby. Certainly you’re not going to find me saying you have to go to college for computer science to be a good programmer. I feel sort of lucky and I do feel the industry doesn’t care that much if you do a computer science degree.Layne: It depends. I know there’s a lot of companies that still do and the think that’s the number one if someone is really skilled in computer science then that’s number one thing. I’m also a big believer that that is no longer a requirement. Anybody that’s extremely motivated and wants to get into the industry can absolutely do so. There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be trying.Andrew: I certainly think there are things. You’re not go work with Chris Lattner on the Swift compiler without a computer science degree unless you’re quite a genius. Probably somebody could learn that on their own but most people are not. Even really good programmers are not going to be at that level or working on that kind of thing without some formal background in all of the art and science that has been done on the last 40 years in university computer science departments. But for a regular programmer making iOS apps, I know a lot of us locally that did not go to school for computer science, some that don’t have college degrees at all, it makes me glad that you sort if learned it yourself. As long as you’re good and driven and smart you can do it.Layne: Yup. Absolutely. I’m a big believer in that. I’ve had lots of people approach me and say, “Do I need to go to college for a computer science?” I say, “You know it just depends. The state of the industry is if you do want to go work on compilers then yeah maybe you do but if you want to make cool iPhone apps maybe that’s not needed.” I would say that making iPhone apps for four years versus going to a computer science degree for four years, you’re going to be really good at iOS apps after four years. That’s awesome. That’s a very valid way to approach it.Andrew: Do you think though that there are somethings that you learn in a college computer science course by getting a degree that you do miss out on being self-taught? I guess I’m asking for you personally. Do you think there are gaps on your knowledge that would’ve been filled by doing that?Layne: Absolutely. I will say that, I’m being very honest here and kind of a little personal but I’m not a great interviewer a lot of the time and whenever I get asked computer science type questions in an interview, I have a really, really hard time with it. I feel like I’m a pretty good programmer but when I get asked to write a binary search I don’t do very well with that because it’s not something that I learned in school. That’s something that definitely has been harder for me and for those that are self-taught is if you are interviewing somewhere and they want you to know this set of algorithms that everyone learns in computer science. You’re either going to have to do it on your own or that’s going to be tough.Andrew: I agree with you. I’m sort of in the same boat. I actually think for some of the interview questions I can do decently well. I’ve tried to fill in some of those gaps in terms of knowing basic data structures and Big O notation. Some basic algorithm, that kind of thing. I’ve tried to learn that stuff.Layne: To be honest, part of problem is I do really poorly on whiteboard code. I freeze up and I don’t like when people watch me writing or typing.Andrew: Well there’s certainly an argument to be made. There are people who would say that’s just not a good interview technique. It’s not an effective interview technique no matter who you're interviewing. I would tend to agree. I don’t like interviews where I get put on the spot. I’m like if I were in front of an x code, solving a real problem I could do this I’ve done it before but to be put in this weird environment without my normal tools and all this pressure it’s maybe not the best way to judge how I’m actually going to work in the job.Layne: I totally agree. I’ve done a fair amount of interviewing so far and I try to make the interview as comfortable as possible. I don’t like to put people on the spot because they don’t do their best in that environment.Andrew: I was going to mention that something I think a little bit interesting is I have worked with students at DevMountain for almost two years. There have actually been a fair number of them that I either like currently in school going to college for CS. I could think of at least one that already had a CS degree and still came to DevMountain which is interesting because it tells me and I think this is true the skills and the education that you get at a bootcamp are not necessarily meant to be at a replacement for computer science. They’re actually sort of different.Layne: I would a 100% agree with you on that because in computer science you’re going to learn a lot about data structures and performance and all that kind of stuff but at a bootcamp especially DevMountain a lot of the focus is on UI kit. UI kit is massive. It takes years and years to learn all the things that UI kit can do. It’s limitations, the things you have to work around. So yeah, I 100% agree.Andrew: You never learn it all because as soon as you think you’ve learned it all another two or three releases of iOS come out and there’s new stuff and you never get a chance to use it. I have been using UI kit like I said since the first beta of iPhone OS 2. I feel like there are whole huge API’s like view controller transitions, it just comes to mind I’ve never done anything. I know they exist.Layne: Absolutely. In fact, I have recently been thinking as far as UI kit goes we’re going to see in the future maybe specializations. Somebody that says I am 100% amazing at view controller and everything about view controllers and then you’re going to have somebody else that’s like, “I know everything about auto layout.” Where the systems are becoming so complex that you really can’t keep the whole thing in your head anymore at all.Andrew: I think maybe to some degree that already happens on individual teams where you have people that no one [0:18:34.0] API’s better than others like I’ve been on teams where I was the one that knew core data the best. We all knew it but I knew it the best so I ended up doing all of our core data stuff.Layne: Yeah, because not only they have UI kit. There’s foundation and all the shared code between Mac and iOS. There’s a lot. There’s so much stuff to learn.Andrew: We don’t even try at DevMountain to teach them everything. We try to teach them the things that we think are the most essential skills that no iOS developer can get away with not knowing.What we really try to teach is what we talked about earlier which is to give students an entry into the whole world. Over that really steep initial learning where everything seems foreign and well I guess not in Swift. I was going to say you’re missing a semi clone and your program won’t work and you can’t figure it out for half an hour. Semi clone is a bad example of Swift but there are similar types of problems right? So we want to get them over that so they feel like they can keep learning but really we know that they need to finish. Hopefully get a job somewhere that will help them keep learning and understand where they’re at and cultivate them. That’s I think is the idea of outcome. They leave with a real set of skills that’s valuable but even more importantly with a desire and ability to keep learning and to grow as a developer over the coming months and years.Layne: I think my biggest hang-up was bootcamps and I mean this is DevMountain. They do this. They’re accountable for this just like everybody else but the marketing for me is a little over the top. If you don’t know the marketing is 12 weeks and you’re going to be an awesome programmer and you’re going to have a job making x amount of money. To me, I understand that’s the overall vision but it’s not as easy as they make it seem. And so, I think definitely my biggest hang-up with these things is that everyone’s a little bit different and everyone has a different road through the bootcamp and not everybody is going to be as successful. There are sometimes there are students that don’t have the success of other students and they just feel like the promises we’re not kept.Andrew: This actually brings up an important point which is bootcamps, at least so far, as far as I know are all for profit schools. They may have good ideals, they do. I think DevMountain does. Everybody there are from pretty small company but from the top down to the bottom cares about how students do. But they also need to make money so they got to have marketing. They’ve got to do marketing. They’ve got to convince people to come there.There’s a real balance to be struck there. Between convincing people it’s a good thing for them but without setting unrealistic expectations or making people think it’s sort of a magic thing where you come in and you sit there for 12 weeks and then you’re done and you’re a real iOS developer because we all know that that’s not how it works. You have to put in a lot of effort. There’s probably an element of just natural talent that maybe not everybody has. Certainly I think the best programmers love doing it and not everybody loves doing it. Even maybe some people who would otherwise be good at it don’t enjoy it. That’s all something that we can’t provide.Layne: Yup. We can’t provide the motivation. That’s got to come from within really.Andrew: I think we at DevMountain in particular try to communicate that pretty well. We try to make it clear that we are there to provide resources and help and care a lot about students but in the end students have to work really hard and it’s on them.We try to be clear that we’re not guaranteeing that you will get an amazing job making $100,000 a year the day after you graduate. If you’re really lucky you might and you work really hard but most people probably not. Probably you’re going to have to do the normal thing which go out and interview at a lot of cases and get better at interviewing. Keep working on their portfolio and network and everything that we all know everybody has to do to find a job.Layne: Yup. And you got to put a little responsibility as well on the students because if you have a student that comes in just thinking, “Hey, I’m going to just sit around for 12 weeks and I’m going to be an iOS developer.” That’s not going to happen frankly because it is hard work. You’re talking 9:00AM to 5:00AM full time job plus expected to do more. Those that do that, they do all their requirements and just go for it and are working Saturdays and Sundays and just going crazy, those are the ones that do really shine. I’ve seen amazing, just amazing things out of some of these students so just frankly inspiring to me to see them go through the program.Andrew: Same with me. It’s really fun to see somebody who comes in, especially now that I’m a full time but even before you see them in their first week and often students look a little like, I don’t know what the word is but deer in the headlights what did I get myself into.Layne: Yeah, totally.Andrew: But by the end, some of them, the best of them, the ones that work really hard and do the best, they’ve done pretty cool stuff. In some cases, even stuff that are like, “Wow, that’s impressive. I don’t even know how to do that.” That’s a lot of fun but the other side of that is that there are definitely students that come in and maybe have the wrong attitude or it’s not that fit for them for one reason or another and they try to coach through. You can tell the motivation is not there. They don’t do well. There’s nothing we or I can do to change that other than to help them to understand their situation and try to convince them to do better. You can’t wave a magic wand.Layne: Yeah and that’s not specific to development bootcamp. That happens in higher education all the time where you have a class full of students and 10% of them just sit there and do nothing. That’s just something that happens in education unfortunately.Andrew: I don’t know how you have thought about this but I’m kind of curious what your thoughts are on what the rise of bootcamps mean for education overall. I’ve seen some thinking and talking and even now occasionally hear it from politicians and the like that maybe college is just not the right thing for everyone. I think for a long time if you want a good job you graduate from high school and then go to college for four years and you get a good job and there’s some thought that maybe that’s not the best model for everyone for whatever reason. Bootcamps are one alternative. Anyway, I don’t know. I just wonder if you have any thoughts on that idea.Layne: Yeah. I definitely do. I’ve thought about this a lot because I feel like the education landscape is changing right before our eyes. With the internet and how we’re all connected and the wealth of information at everybody’s fingertips. I feel like I learned how to program and my whole entire career is based on the fact that I figured out early in my career how to use Stack Overflow and Apple’s Documentation really well. I feel like that bootcamps are playing into this really well because they’re filling this void of I want to jump start into my career a lot faster than four years and it’s working. I think one of the main reasons it’s working so well is that there is so much work in the industry right now that there’s just not enough people to do it. Somebody, if they don’t want to wait for years they don’t have to. They can in three weeks or if they’re super motivated and they do this themselves, they can go and there’s so many resources online that you can be in the workforce very quickly. It’s happening a lot.Andrew: I’m not sure my thoughts on this are really concrete yet because as we’ve discussed I’ve now been in I guess what you’d call three worlds. I went to college. Get a regular degree in electrical engineering. I worked as an electrical engineer after that doing hardware. I taught myself to program and have made that my career for the last while. And now of course I’m walking full time at a bootcamp. I haven’t been to a bootcamp as a student but I certainly wouldn’t give up my college experience if I had to do it all over again. I’d definitely go to college again. I guess I don’t know the answer to this question but I think there was value in being self-taught but I might have chosen to go to a bootcamp to learn how to program. Certainly would’ve been a jumpstart. I feel it took me way longer to get as good as bootcamp graduates. I took a little bit in 12 weeks.Layne: I think I would agree. Knowing what I know now if I we’re starting over, knowing my personality and where I was when I started doing this I would’ve loved a bootcamp. Absolutely just eaten it up because I wanted to do it anyways. And to be able to just jump in and do a full time with people there to help me all the time, that would’ve been a fantastic resource. Absolutely.Andrew: I think probably me too. One thing that has been really valuable to me in the last five or so years is that for five or six years I was really serious about Mac and iOS development. I’ve been spending a whole lot of my own time on it but I literally didn’t know anyone else other than people I followed on twitter or something but nobody that I knew personally did it. I didn’t have any friends. And then Cocoa had started up in Salt Lake. I started going to that and more and more people are doing it and the local community here got really big and good. I love that. It makes me so happy that I have so many friends that share my interest or doing the same things as I’m doing and enjoy the same stuff we have here in Utah. We have I think quite a good community but one that have been nice to learn in a similar environment I think it would have.Layne: I actually envy those that are going to CocoaHeads and learning from the brighter surround around them because I felt like my first few years while I learned a lot I also developed a lot of really bad habits and I had no idea. There’s no way to know what you’re doing is bad or not.Andrew: I was looking at some code that I wrote. I don’t really remember when but it was in my very first few months of doing Objective-C. I was writing NSString, string with string and then a Static String. Everywhere I want to use a string I thought you had to wrap it in a string.Layne: That’s amazing.Andrew: Nobody told me I didn’t need to do that and it works. It doesn’t actually cause me problems so I don’t really remember how I finally figured out that that was not what I should be doing. There are other things like that but it would’ve been nice to have somebody that knew what they were doing to even point out little stuff like that and say, “Hey, you don’t need to do it that way.” Or “There’s a better way to do this.” I certainly hope that’s one of the things I provide to students at DevMountain now and at CocoaHeads. I think there’s real value in going through and being able to work with people who work directly with people, who have already learned the stuff that you’re trying to learn.Layne: I do also think that my background and yours are similar that it’s helped me become a much better teacher for the students at DevMountain because I remember so well what it was like being in their shoes. I’m actually very glad at the same time that I did struggle through all of that and just struggled, struggled, struggled because it helps me in ways that I probably wouldn’t have otherwise if I would’ve had a bootcamp or a bigger community around me. I am happy with the way everything turned out.Andrew: Yeah, I am too. I actually have this conversation with a student his week. He was frustrated. He said he had been working on a problem for a day or two and he couldn’t figure it out and then I came in and helped him and fixed it in a minute or something. “It was such a quick fix.” He said. “I wish I could have had you fix that right away instead of me struggling for a while.” I had to explain to him that well, two things, I only knew how to fix that really quickly because I’ve hit into problems like that so many times and especially when I was starting out. Struggled with them for a really long time.The knowledge is hard won. There’s a balance to be struck I want students to get help but if you always have the answer handy to you, you don’t really learn. I am actually grateful in my own learning experience, sometimes having to struggle. Even if it was really frustrating I can remember bugs that now would probably be a big deal but when I didn’t know what was going on, you think you’re never going to fix it. You’ll think never going to figure it out.Layne: Oh yeah. Totally. I have one bug that is just so in the front of my mind and I always remember this. This is an iOS story of making this iPad app. We have these newsfeeds in this app and I wanted to catch all that data so that when you open the app again it was just there and then it would reload. What I did is I serialized it all into JSON and then I stuck it into core data. I’m talking like two megabytes’ worth of JSON and smashed it into core data. When you go and retrieve that so much stuff out of core data. It would like 10 seconds to launch the app and I had no idea what I was doing then. I was like, “This thing seems like a good idea.” And it wasn’t. So yeah, those things. They’re fun to look back on but I’m so glad I’ve learned how to get pass that kind of stuff.Andrew: The last thing I want to touch on maybe before we wrap up is that I think bootcamp is a really young industry right now. I think it is becoming an industry. Like any young industry there are things that the industry still needs to learn and still needs to figure out. I also think there’s variation between bootcamps out there. I’m obviously biased of course especially now that I’m employed by DevMountain but I think DevMountain does a really good job and I think we have good motivations and obviously we make money. We need to make money to keep going but that’s not our sole goal and focus. We want students to be successful and we want them to have a good experience and we want them to learn real skills and learn them the right way. I think there are probably, not singling any out but I think there are probably bootcamps that maybe don’t have such a good attitude and really are in it for the money. Or just happy to get somebody to come pay them and get through the program and have nothing to do with them. Who cares if they succeed. We got their money. That’s something that I think is the industry goes up will. We’ll hopefully get better. I hope it’s something that the industry itself figures out. I know there’s been increasing talk of the government being involved in how bootcamps operates. I don’t know if it’s accreditation or whatever but funding them and this and that. I have pretty mixed feelings about that.Layne: Yup. I agree with you. I think it’s in infant stages and it will be interesting to see in the next couple of years because I don’t think there’s going to be any shortage of software engineering jobs in the future. And so, this is going to continue to grow as the industry as a whole, continues to grow. It’ll be fun to see where it goes.Andrew: Alright. Well, do have some picks first Layne.Layne: I have just one and I don’t know if I’ve said this on the show so far but I’m a very, I’m way into Dark Souls video game series that I really like and there’s a studio that just released one a couple of months ago or maybe even a year now ago called Salt and Sanctuary. It’s a 2D platformer version of Dark Souls. If you are into Dark Souls or action RPG’s at all, I would give Salt and Sanctuary a try. Great art style. Good game play. Super fun and as a fan of the Soul series it’s pretty great. Just one pick. That’s it.Andrew: Thanks. That sounds cool. I’ve never played Dark Souls at all. I don’t know anything about it.Layne: It’s pretty specific. You either love it or you think it’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever done.Andrew: There are probably plenty of things I want that fall into that category too. I’ll pick three things. I think one of them may actually a duplicate pick but it’s back in my life again so I want to pick it again. I was talking to Layne before the show but I’ve been working on restoring some old computers for a little museum exhibit that I’m going to do at DevMountain and maybe we’ll talk about it on a later episode or something. Old Macs in particular. All of them, the old ones have SCSI, used SCSI for their hard drive connections. Believe it or not it’s hard to find replacement SCSI hard drives these days. SCSI one hard drives at that. A lot of hard drives that are 30 years old don’t really work anymore so luckily there’s this thing called SCSI2SD that a guy, I can’t actually remember his name, but it’s just one guy designed and sells that lets you plug an SD card in and use that as a SCSI hard drive so it’s pretty nice way to sort of resurrect some of these old computers and put where they might have had a 20-megabyte hard drive before now you can put a four-gigabyte or two-gigabyte SD card in them in its solid state. It’s faster and you can just swap it out and put it in your modern computer if you want to transfer files onto it. It’s a pretty cool little thing. That’s SCSI2SD. Along the same lines, I’m also going to pick a website called macintoshgarden.org. I supposed this is a little bit of a weak or gray area but it’s kind of an abandon website for old Mac software. A lot of it is really old stuff for system six which came out in sort of mid 80’s. it’s the very early days of the Mac. That’s a good place if you got some of these old computers to find software for them. Lastly, I don’t know how many people care about this as much as I and some other nerds do but the 50th anniversary of Star Trek was on September 8, last week as we record this and start Star Trek means a lot to me. It has been one of my favorite things since I was a little, little kid. And kind of coinciding with the 50th anniversary, Leonard Nimoy who died last year. Leonard Nimoy’s son made a documentary called For The Love of Spock. It’s a documentary about Spock and Leonard Nimoy. I backed in on Kickstarter and I think it came out on theaters on Friday. Kickstarter backers got a link to stream a couple of days early so I watched it a few nights ago. I just really loved it. I thought it was really, really well done. It’s quite an honest and comprehensive history of Leonard Nimoy and his family and what he meant to the world. I love it and so if you have any interest at all in Star Trek even if you just watched it and enjoyed it, I think this was a really great look at somebody that was really important to that show. Those are my picks.Layne: That’s awesome. I totally want to check that out.Andrew: I thought it was very well done. I went and back in on Kickstarter kind of like it could be. You never know it could be kind of dumb but I think they made enough money that I think they were able to pay for really good production values. There’s a lot of archival footage, photographs and interviews. All kinds of people that worked on Star Trek with him and his son of course is the director of the movie. He’s a professional director. That’s what he does for a living. It’s not just dappling in it.Layne: Cool.Andrew: Worth watching.Layne: I have like you a Star Trek. I’m not a super fan but I have so many memories watching Star trek with my dad when I was a kid that even though I’m not a super fan it still means a lot to me on an emotional level just because of connecting with my dad. That’s awesome. I’m going to check that out.Andrew: Alright. We’ll thanks Layne. It was good to talk to you.Layne: Yes. Thanks as well.Andrew: Thanks everybody for listening. See you next week.Layne: Bye.Andrew: Bye.