198 iPS When Your App Becomes a Company with Matt Ronge

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When Your App Becomes a Company with Matt Ronge

On today's episode, Jaim and Erika discuss When Your App Becomes a Company with Matt Ronge. Matt is the cofounder of Astropad, a drawing app that works well on an iPad. He has appeared as guest in episode 113, where he talked about launching an app. Tune in and learn how they developed Astropad and how it evolved into a company!

About Astropad

Astropad runs on iPad with a corresponding Mac app. It mirrors the Mac screen, and enables people to draw graphics with an Apple Pencil. It's great for illustrators, photographers, and others who are into design.

A Spark of Inspiration

Matt's cofounder, Giovanni, was the one who started the idea. He kept seeing ads about Microsoft Surface, but didn't want to buy. That's when he thought about having the same thing on an iPad. He and Matt previously had a frustrating experience with drawing tablets. Matt immediately jumped into the idea. At that time, they didn't know what they were going into.

Efforts on Latency

Astropad has a really low latency. They set it as their challenge to keep it that way. Matt and Giovanni built a custom tech to do it. They ran latency tests via iPhone, and did lots of other tricks. They also had a custom compression stack and network protocol for it. All these they did to make the latency below what most people perceive. Download and listen to When Your App Becomes a Company with Matt Ronge. Don't forget to leave us a rating and review if you enjoyed the show. We love hearing from you!


Erika: Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Trilogy third book Jaim: BetterExplained.comMatt: 3Blue1Brown YouTube channel, Becoming Steve Jobs book

Episode Link:

AstropadLaunching an App in the App Store with Matt Ronge


iPS 198 Matt Ronge


[0:00] Music.[0:06] Hey everybody and welcome to episode 198 show today in our show we have someone you probably recognize if you have a swift evolution.Feels better I guess the four but she's doing on the panel today please welcome Erica Sadun thank you so much for having me we're glad to have you here and I guess today is Matt Runge.It's great to be here excellent I'm Jaim Zuber.And that we had you on the show before it's been a couple years I think.Back when you were launching looks almost two years at this point but didn't there at last time you were here you would just launch your product astropad mq tells a little bit about that.Yeah so.[1:00] Music.[1:08] There's also a course I'm a companion app that you want,Anna connect your Mac and your iPad together so that it will mirror your Mac screen on your iPad and then you can use apple pencil to dry right on the iPad and use it like a tablet I'm so really you can.[1:26] Music.[1:36] Why, Gary Spencer and then you had to deal with specialty Hardware okay who would be a typical user like yes we have a lot of it was traitors photographer.[1:50] Music.[1:56] Free popular on the whole day a lot of illustrators a lot of people working in Photoshop doing all kinds of design the concept is so sweet.Are you looking to expand your skills mobile development have an idea for the next Angry Birds app then you need to check out FiOS remote coffee produced by the same team that brings you your favorite deaf chat. TV podcasts like broke and I freaks.Join us for two days of jam-packed fun and learning stream2u Live May 17th and 18th go check it out at iOS remote com.com.[2:34] Music.[2:41] All kinds of design the concept is so sweet I mean when I first.Went to your website and looked at it and realized that you could put a Photoshop I will not a player Candace whatever you call it on to your iPad.And then start drawing directly onto it I just found that such an exciting idea where did that come from yes I came from.Maya.[3:15] Music.[3:31] I know why can't I do something like that with the iPad that'd be really cool if I use the iPad to Mac together and I both him and I had had previous experience with like Wacom drawing tablets and we've been really Trey Burton.And so like the next day when you.[3:47] Music.[3:53] Pain in the butt to use this very difficult hand-eye coordination that you got to use,you got to learn to,how to use a runaway was like okay that's this is great idea let's see can we do it and then that was the underdog was was the really hard part we had no idea at the time what we were getting into.How is the latency latency is really low on Wii.And it was really the challenge in and building a mother's really there's really two aspects that are really you needs the tech that makes it run RR technique called liquid and that's what I'm on.Developing atra pads just we spent just about a year-and-a-half developing liquid and then more time with any nail polish it up and turn it over all good.App and user experience but um so we had to build custom Tech to keep the latest CD really really low now it's dependent on your Wi-Fi network or if you're using USB.But you know what even on USB we can do it where I buy vuse like the.The iPhone camera to take pictures right to latency test and I put like a millisecond timer up on one screen and have it and mirror.To the Y to the same.[5:25] When I take a picture it's actually ends up being on the same for him so at that point we know it's less than 16 milliseconds of latency and we'd actually in fact you need a faster refresh screen with a fast refresh rate,to even measure and below that is 16.Yeah that's below the human yeah that's really yeah that's really.[5:53] Music.[5:59] To pull it off I mean we'd split the system out on my would you like some.Rehabitation on the GPU before it sent over to the CPU for for the compression so we have are a custom compression stack,and we have a custom Network protocol that specifically tuned for low latency,and so kind of putting all those pieces together or I were able to pull off that incredibly low latency and get below what most people can easily perceive.[6:29] Could you have done this before the pencil drawing actually did I'm so that's that's a decision question.Where to get lunch before the pencil.[6:41] Music.[6:52] Really interested in the concept but the reality was the style just weren't good enough like we were targeting professional users but the.Big chunky styluses that were available for the iPad there were some Bluetooth ones to not grade they just weren't they just weren't good enough,pros of trying to be like you had a lot of potential but it's not just not there yet so really what transformed Azkaban,and what Transformers are business to was the apple pencil we ended up being really in the perfect spot for one apple pencil law.[7:30] Music.[7:36] 10 months before the pencil came out it was enough time for us to like get it.[7:43] Music.[7:51] The software and improve the user experience improve the core Tech so that when apple pencil came out we were ready,it wasn't like one at that time like we already had put multiple versions out and we were in the right place at the right time.[8:07] I never wear your investing like this huge huge amount into your infrastructure.How did you set up the business knowing there was such a big Tech investment we didn't know it getting into it,and I'm glad we didn't we might have scared away.I always described it as kind of like it was like hill climbing where we like her like me.We're like we get to the top of one Hill and then we you know and then we can see in front of us and it like while there is there's a hill we got to climb that's even higher and we just kept doing that so from where we started couldn't see how difficult it was.We just got me on weekend working at it and like a really come this far you know if you're going to the challenge of like how can we make something that's incredibly low latency,and also really high-quality imagery that's all the thing I didn't mention earlier is that,it has to be really really high quality.Noah pixelation artifacts or and were color corrected as well you know because if you're doing I mean what you're looking at on your iPad has to look like what's on your computer so that was you don't another chance on top of.We have to be honest we were it was incredible technical Challenge and we really believe that there was a market there because walking is such a big company.[9:50] We thought there had to be a space with us.[9:55] That's awesome so let me listen out for a couple years I remember when pencil came out to un just won the Minnesota cup and I'm thinking.They're going like right from the award ceremony going back to work to make that pencil work.No I'm actually for the.[10:17] Music.[10:22] I never said two largest Statewide business competition in the country and so we participate in that was a great experience and learned a lot from that.You can enter that I've been really helping us build a business it just so happened that the final judging day for the Minnesota cop was the same day as we know it will announce also is incredible day for us.You're literally for we were literally editing or slides like minutes before we had to do our presentation for the Minnesota cup do you take a screenshot of the keynote and get picture pencil in there.[11:02] It's like that screen from Elf for the get done with Christmas and they have to start all over again.[11:08] Yeah no I was it was I believe the first when we launched it for iPad Pro I believe Giovanni coated it up and we didn't.We submitted to App Store we didn't.[11:22] Music.[11:28] Apple Stores trying to get my hands on that apple pencil so I can test it tonight on the day that I came out threats to the Head.That's awesome so now you lost this thing and I don't like people have launched apps by don't know yet people have lunch at people are downloading like crazy and using what was that process like.Yes it was.[11:55] We were really lucky in the beginning that we got like a ton we gotta just a ton of initial traffic and got it really started grade word of mouth that.Pictures of a lot of people from that it was a lot of people are actually looking for a solution like that they're looking at other Googling on after the Googling stuff like how can I use my iPad as drawing.And so we're able to get a lot of new customers and that way so.Really tapped into this demand that was there and as a result we haven't followed the typical curve and with other soccer I've released in the past it's always like whoa launched a huge lunch today and then just like.Downhill from there until you do another launched its place and it's really Captain the something here where there's a need where there's been like his assistant traffic and consistent demand for this,how many people are in your shop yes we are now five five of us full time.And at any given time as of right now we have for contractors any at any given time I think is for it yet any given time 3-4 contractors on top of the five people.[13:11] And how do you manage that the scaling that's been involved because it sounds like it was a two-person startup that they grew.Definitely I mean it's been a learning experience for us for sure we.What do this wild learn to is that at United We Grew the team I mean it sounds obvious but in practice it was a hard lesson to learn is that that as we grew the team that weed.Have to be harder for us to do development.And it being pulled in so many different directions now that you know we had to bring in other people to do a lot of the development.Mom put it's been in some of it is been like out in the city as well Scanlon team it's like you know we had to bring in,customer support person and she's great she's not dumb she's already.[14:12] Music.[14:19] I was spending so much time around launches and figured out how do I get word out and coordinating marketing stuff cuz the market and Noah from the beginning for my lawn has always been something like Focus very heavily on.Would you and we haven't just like on let's put it out there and let's see if we're getting a user's we've been very conscious about,Marketing in so he don't wait to bring on somebody to help us up some work and she's been awesome as well I'm going to do an able to do so much more now with that with young with her help and then so that I should point out to write letters that.We talked last time we talked a lot about your marketing thing and give it called talk at all, which would have been 2015 teleporting remarketing.[15:04] Like they don't like you're coming so if you want to come over an app that's a great place to start.[15:11] Yes next weekend yeah we don't we spend it on time we still do you know we recently launched the holy website and blog and video and you know we're always trying to up our game.So that's something we spend you know really is much time on that as we do as development do either of you have business background,you know we've always had the entrepreneurship bug.So Mike O'connor die imma go funders name as you about it knowing him and I met.About 10-11 years ago now as Apple insurance and you know how I remember back then after that we have both devils and doing my share where.New years later if you don't then we wouldn't meet up again and end up you and ask your pad but remember even back then we both you know,I had shared experience dabbling with you doing doing caps and selling them online so we had had some previous experience one chain.Like soccer products but nothing on the scale of Aster pass.And so that it's been incredibly rewarding and challenging challenging process to figure out you know how to scale up after pen.The development process do you realize that you can't do it by yourself how do you make that decision.[16:49] Yeah so that was that was shortly after the apple pencil,came out,and we were really realizing real like while I don't know there's three so many things we need to take care of customer support and marketing and the you know,I'm going running a business like why we cannot put in the dedicated time we did.419 Alabaster battery would just be able to put in the significant,thunderstorm length of time just hammer away at the core Tech it was like Wow or not you're not making the forward progress we won like I think it's.[17:33] We're stalling out here we really need more Hall,I was in like we just couldn't we weren't moving as fast as we wanted and we knew that we had to bring somebody else in and so what you don't we've got arrested over with this now he's great he is love you don't,our most recent update Astrid Studio are really she released more than update,is is Ben Charlie is baby he's been able to do like incredible incredible amount,by just having a dedicated forget about me time again like we used to have.You have invested so much in creating this,backbone custom tack how did you architect that or is it all just found solutions that you were going yeah so the.The architecture is very modular and that's been a really big key of being able to pull it off so we have these become like labs.Very broken up in a bunch of different Library like we have we have our own networking Library.Which can be run separately I have the video Codec Library which can be run separately so then we have all sorts of,past projects with these so most the time you're working on the tech wrecking not working and after 4 years you working in some specialized tool,set alarm for to work a lot faster and losses also to really isolate problems and that's really been a key in when being able to pull off building liquid and I think if we done it was one big monolithic piece of code.[19:17] I didn't have been incredibly challenging and probably incredibly buggy just just being able to.Divide and conquer like that,your bugs has been really really helpful and then we have let you know sooner or later the ass that app so that you don't intergrades this component in.[19:44] That's kind of the overall architecture that allowed us to get this thing to work within the components of individual components have been,each one has been Rewritten many times what happened is it just like to learn a little more on when I go this is going to work,lets you know we do it like I can see that you read it are video codec for version 2 after patch you know we learned so much from the one pointing out that it was like hey.I can go in the video card component I can redo this it was great cuz it didn't disturb anything else cuz it was his modular piece but it's been a lot of trial and error.[20:22] Do you touch 3rd party libraries we we don't have a ton of third-party libraries especially for core stuff only really really use third-party libraries is for like.Crash report in analytics otherwise I would see no spark on the Mac for updates.But if it score to the experience or the S that app generally it's our own it's around stuff.See this is an area that has two dates make and I have this prejudiced idea that successful Tech,tends to be stuff you control from the bottom up have you found that yes I agree 100% with you now I don't think you know that being said there's areas you don't work make sense not to make any sense for us to do our on Crash reporting service but we've chosen,one area truly specialize and go deep in that scene or network in her video component video Codec,and that's allowed us to do,tremendous amount of stuff that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to do that we've been using like an off-the-shelf or your component weren't you know using like I'm 80 Foundation or something like that it's really cool too,only being able to pull it off as only entire stack there is there's been a lot of the other interesting thing to his label.[22:01] Paisley design you know like our Network like a video Codec is designed specifically for wireless so that's something we couldn't necessarily do otherwise like it is Ben.The way it works is been engineered to fit within like a typical Wireless packet size so we've been able to do those kinds of accusations.That had we not on the entire stack I think would be extremely difficult to do if not impossible.[22:29] Yeah I tend to call it nose-to-tail stack.[22:33] Yeah I know it's it's it's one of our biggest advantages we have for that bad as having the control over that much the Stag and.If anything we ever time we're bringing more and more stuff into our own staff that we have full control over it.[22:51] So it's a go ahead real wide.Ray detect you have in your app for controlling all these things and how do you make the decision of what skill sets you need for your first higher or second higher.Yeah so.The biggest thing row is looking for which by the way we are looking to hire somebody right now working to bring somebody on to work on our video Codec really bring it to the next level but you know her,what kind of position were really most of all looking for passion for being really interested and excited by the technical problems,and I'm also being interested in this basement working in in my pretty creative software and you know anything people do make and draw on piercings,people are really into that that's you know that's the first thing we look for people that you like it,definitely not know it's more you know do you have the drive to have the you know the hunger to want to work on this kind of stuff,cuz I really want to do it we believe.People that really want to do it I forgot how to do it so.Your first Tire like he's a great all-around General developer he's doing a lot on in particular on iOS which is great.[24:24] But I know that's not necessarily a requirement.[24:30] So what languages have you chosen so we pretty much.[24:36] Music.[24:43] Hey there this is Charles Max one I just wanted to talk to you really briefly about freelancer.com,I'm putting on a conference for people who want to go freelance or who are freelance and bringing in some of the experts from the freelancer show to talk to you about how to find clients how to collect money.How to build your business how to specialize and much much more so if you're thinking about going freelance for you're already freelance and want to hear from the experts on how to go,become more bro you're freelancing business then by all means come check us out a freelancer moco.com.[25:19] So we pretty much the entire saying is active C&C we're starting up pull some C++ in there.But I put the most part depending on depending on where it is in the stack by you don't number of lines it's mostly Objective C.I'm sorry too sorry didn't meant that we know any Swift Code and there would you be sorry though.[25:51] For us there's that.Interesting thing is if I had been working on after that I'd probably be all over Swift,because years before after that I was like you know there needs to be a better language going to pick to see this like is nodapl things like my phone and I come back from Jake of CNN you be so frustrated be like what is this,after pad we've been so focused on like just getting stuff done.It was just like okay what do we know okay we know Hector sea org able to do it,so that's really been and then also the Italian aggression with no see just being able to go easily between see an Objective C it is especially things like the,the video Codec are mostly see most of the end that's generally for performance reasons.[26:55] Seems to me if you're spending a lot of time in the GPU you just actually going to gravitate there yeah to like see because.So it right now there's at some later there's some objective c but it's just,with these disinter most lives get so I get called so much that it's like all the sudden you don't message saying this is just killing it so we have to go with,C function calls and also yeah but you stuff you know we're using things like opengl and opencl years opencl and also also some metal and there too.And I was totally a cabin,so in it were trying to extract every last ounce of performance we can in fact we have assembly code in there as well,we're using me a sissy and Mia me injector units,on the exit 6 and arm chips and cats,this is some of our innermost functions have been optimized out as you know assembly,to get the absolute highest performance weekend but I'm fascinated by the fact you felt,that you had to apologize for sticking with these tools do you feel pressure from Apple to move to Swift.[28:32] Hey I want to say pressure from Apple to move this where it just,it just seems like the way that the community the industry's going Swift like script is really caught on and start to feel like it's at the Tipping Point.[28:55] Type of course America so it was Swift if we were to do this type of stuff in Swift realistic language we get a lot of the same type of performance.If you want that you would do with your performance.[29:22] No that's a really hard question.It's the reason that it's so hard is that a lot of times in the discussion of the language people say,well we know the compiler is good to be able to optimize this at some point.[29:44] That's not necessarily the answer that people who have shipping code today want to hear,yeah it kind of stuff that it's like okay well let's drive down to see another area is,is in a very precise memory management and also in,the raw access you have to memory,and see where like you know when you doing like Graphics kind of stuff like a video Codec does we're going through buffers and,and also just like putting together a package that was sent across the network and see it's dangerous because you're at that low,because your love always,search free access to memory but at the same time it's incredibly powerful and really useful for these kinds of situations definitely.20 years ago I started programming C++.Actually gets run this but someday we'll get there was Swift.[31:03] Yeah that would be great other thing for us is,portability is important and I know we'd love that like to do this trip sounds awesome awesome being able to write,system-level stuff in Swift that's high performance and that could be portable across platforms and you have the incredible because no we're not.Using stuff like a C++ penis is really love it it's just as of today you know one of the better better languages for the job of you don't system-level software that needs to be portable.So if you're trying to bring people on your team if you're telling them you're think about C++ is that fact.[31:50] Desirability of the job.[31:54] So far it hasn't cuz you know we're really we want to look to for people that are really excited about the problems faced and that they are.They want to use the best tool for the job you know they're really interested in the video cookspace they're interested and in all the networking space that's like hey I'm going to use whatever language and Frameworks and tools are really.I needed to get the job done in the best way I possibly can.That's really the kind of people were looking for and I'm so far it hasn't been it has been a problem.[32:49] Newaygo love your app is to be invisible how do you design invisible app yeah yeah that's been.[33:06] That's been a challenge and we had to do some unique UI to come pull it off weed,because of our things we done is and we don't really do gestures when I just heard from the side or just your income and gestures that would necessarily interfere with some.[33:37] What's into the Mac so we can't your free sample like override do we detect pinch to zoom but we have to make sure that,we don't have her on a specific function for that instead we need to be taking that pinch and we need to be sending it to the Mac as if you're preaching on the trackpad,pretend all sorts of unique design characteristics prove that you don't want to which is that we have to be very careful with chairs and high and how we build,any Jesters into the app retrieve done more with the most recent estimates to do and Magic gestures that mean produced but in the other thing is to is like you know,show me the whole iPad screen with the display the mac and not trying not to get,are you on the way and as you said being invisible so what we had to do is we,we got the circle button that you can move around and when you talk it brings up a full sidebars we got this Rich sidebar and their butts actually adaptive and changes depending on the app you have,tramac but you know we've made it really easy to hide that,used have that Circle button the ring button and hide the sidebar if you don't want to see it and then we've also made that ring but invisible so you can move it all around the screen so if you don't get in your way you can talk it over to the sides we've really worked really hard.Dad if you want just the Mac screen.[35:10] We really try to give you that and so that you can hide you know you are that you don't need out of the way and stay invisible so it's so.It's quite a bit of time throughout the sidebar design where we have the sidebar that hides and shows that we can really build a rich.Set of features and functionality in there and settings.The service really well for her doing that or we can know I can be invisible or or we can have the side.Has it been there since your first version or is it something more that involved it's definitely wrong it was theirs is our first version.What started out as is it started out as.So if we were the traditional Graphics tablet where you're like trying on this black slayed and then on the side there's a bunch of physical buttons.Original sidebar was modeled after that as if the idea of having his physical buttons on the side except you don't set a physical buttons of course it was so that was the original idea.But it is of all the lot since then and after that studio is really really wanted to love two.Let now it's it's more like a navigation and troll on the side where we have nested.Credit Rich hierarchy of features and functionality there and I know it seems obvious it's like you look at the how it works as it should work that way definitely took us quite a while.[36:47] Find that design.It's um it's really serving as well and it's great because it's extensible to and for something like a stretch to do that we're going to be adding.Tons more features to really catering to the high-end pro has red studio so you know we got tons of room to grow now.I'm fascinated by your pricing structure.And you know when I first saw it I thought to myself.It's kind of a hybrid between the traditional iPad you know app pricing and something you would expect a from Adobe with the yearly.No subscription how did you settle on. How did you decide to buy that your market and and come up with this notion.Yeah yeah so it's definitely definitely is a hybrid and I just said what.After we launch after pad and really after the apple pencil came out,NFL apple pencil came out we had the hardware of the iPad Pro and apple pencil and so we started to get a lot of high-end professionals using after pad.I'm clear that there was two who really groups of astropad users.There was the people that occasionally used it.[38:20] Or they were hobbyists and they played around with it on the weekend and I like to draw in Photoshop but you know I'm really wasn't a part of their day today work flower don't make that use it now and then they want to edit some photos and they use that with Photoshop.But they're not using it then with a pencil.We started to get users that we liked living on it like 5 days a week you can ask your pad replacing their walk on products and using iPad Pro and after that instead.And they were,asking all sorts of Futures and it's so it was like okay well you want to keep it simple enough for these folks that are usually only occasionally,and we want to let you know prices to them cuz they're not going out you know occasional users they're not going to pay a subscription cuz they're just not in or not makes no sense but then on the other,we got these users that are demanding all sorts of really sophisticated features and it's like while we can and we can build these teachers are asking for,will one time price I could just it's just not going to work because you're too sophisticated is got to go really deep.And really don't think throughout his features were simple things like you know I like your 10 bit color.The color samples and great example of things that would take.A lot of effort to build into extra pad that really only the highest and prose.[39:51] It was like okay we need some way.Then we can split this so that the pros that really need every feature and they need every productivity enhancement they can get they can pay for it but at the same time.Accessible,the people that only occasionally when I use it in fact you'll see this with some products we're known for a long time that had the bamboo Graphics tablet really for,your hobbies and then another and you had the Wacom intuos,intros not charge I got to say it until I was that is you know for the crate a professional and so.This has been done prior as well you know we really need to split.Square music group in the two so we can care to each very very specifically.[40:51] Having separate user groups.How do you manage the different levels of customer support that comes with it and is it what you would expect where you would get,more sport requests from the lower one than the Higher One,yeah that is actually what we do see we do see more support request from the weekends to do an estimated standard to receive more support request from standard and general exam,Z's can support equestrian scene from specified Studio are more in-depth and more like feature request like a I want to do this and this and this and Maya.And I'm very very specific versus estimates Tanner questions a lot more like hey I'm having trouble getting this setup doesn't seem to work on my Wi-Fi network.How do you do your customer service deal with them because developing good customer service sucks become a really big part.As an independent iOS platform.Yeah you definitely I mean it helps that our customer support person she's incredibly patient and a sheet you know she also she knows she really knows these tools in an hour.[42:31] Install for us to it's as part of bringing that into our development process to so that there's some things that we can't.Necessarily do anything about somebody has an Enterprise Wi-Fi network there's a firewall that's preventing them from connecting well there's not a whole lot we can do about that.But in other cases we try to learn from that customer support.We try to bring it back into the development process so that we can improve the product and some way to hopefully prevent that in the future.To reduce another's questions or or intelligently warn somebody about that you know unusual scenario they got into and how they can correct it.So if you get multiple types of employees working on your software you got.People answering the phone people writing a code you got your founders.At your best Minneapolis is the rest of the team are they all working how's that work.Yes we're a remote team most of them are here in the Minneapolis area but for the most part B work from home,will you have a small presence in Northeast Minneapolis a small office there and Corgis best make sure that right now and,Michael Sander is in San Francisco and so like.You know we're hiring right now for something here to work going to be a good I can we're not you don't we're not strictly looking temperature for Minneapolis were you know were opened up.[44:06] All over the place and we have contractors from Italy Florida Washington State,still working as a distributor.[44:22] What I was going to say is because you're so distributed how to set how do you manage.Facilities in stock do you primarily sample on dedicated spaces co-working spaces how do you deal with plant issues.Yes I feel like for each individual person like how do you know they're drunk on setup is that what you're asking about really depends,yeah we have one person as she does she has our marketing and she comes in every day to co-working space,you know I kind of very I split my time between home and also according to bed and some other people you know they love working from home,they just you know it's a huge positive about the job for them working from home so have their own set up their own little.[45:25] Music.[45:31] You don't make it make it work for them so you don't want to get into it really works surprisingly well.That's awesome I noticed and most of our audience I think we'll have noticed that you were advertising for the the video roll on stack overflow.See I did not say must relocate to San Francisco so that's good.Right definitely not know yeah we had you know hey if you're in Minneapolis we've got you know we got some at office space here otherwise you know remote.[46:02] Awesome so we're getting little cut down the time of any of their questions or things you want to cover before we get to the pics.[46:14] Well I do that though just one less thing since you are now hiring boat what do you think about all those hiring test the ones that everybody freaks out about and studies for is that an approaching use when you're trying to get Personnel all you're talking about like the quizzes like hey you don't write me a binary tree that kind of.Yeah whiteboard um yeah we're not fans that really we.Once again going back more to like finding some of that really has an interest in the area and then we prefer people to do a little project before we are there my to do if you don't know nothing on Earth that I can a ticket on time.Little bit allows you to work like how you know that's going to be relevant to the work you're going to be doing no I was you to write up a project and you know then we can go over it we can review the code talk about you wrote it the way you did.Rather than say a whiteboard interview which is I mean nobody and nobody doing.Soccer team in his career it doesn't look up stuff all the time so it doesn't seem reasonable subject somebody to that kind of Pop Quiz.I said it's like,will give you interesting problem and you know use the resources you have available and then you know to make sure that actually did it and we'll walk through it and talk about it.[47:48] I know that you take that approach socially cuz you're not a.Lucas buy pickles to the right type of company very low-level code yeah probably some heavy hour the work you doing well up there.Yeah and you know we'll just kind of.Talk back and forth to about like I level concepts related to an email it's a it's like a video card I might talk about the compression and maybe something.[48:21] Music.[48:27] Where everybody has their hand in everything.And so I know you're not going to be necessarily strictly one piece of ass you know you're going to be wandering around.Working on all sorts of different things within the app and I even even a person coming on the cut at the end of working on other things now and then as well maybe the networking system Maybe,or maybe Billy some Q&A infrastructure for the Kodak maybe you know there's a wide variety of stuff so we're looking for people that are really flexible and,awesome show for ring low on time so we should probably get to the pics thank you come on the show Matt's haircut.Hey everybody this is Charles Max Wood I just wanted to talk to you really briefly about yes or no, we just pick speakers things are looking really good,and we're really excited to cover a broad range of topics for JavaScript helpers so if you're looking to learn things about nodejs,about becoming a better developer about deployment about mobile development and much more and much more about JavaScript income check it out yes or no come from,are you going to the death TV / conferences and then picking the comforts you want we have last year's recordings there we have this year's.A conference coming up to make sure you get your ticket and we'll see you there no one time so she probably get to the pics.[50:02] Thanks come in the show Matt's pick for us.[50:08] I do have a pic for this week which is that if you're into science fiction or fantasy Brandon sanderson's third book and his,Stormlight Trilogy is now available for pre-order from Amazon which he was a delightful surprise yesterday excellent.So I can pick and I haven't actually use the service but enough people have told me good things about it called better explained so it's a lot of.Math concept explain very well,that's if I took Engineering in college so I would open the stuff at one point which I have probably forgotten over the past however many years so if you are person that say wanted to learn how to liquid hack on sale in your algebra,which at one point I could have been on a whiteboard but not a longer I texted did some somebody stuff last year and it was a massive stack overflow.Cutting and pasting.But I want to understand a little bit better I could go to better explain. Calm and not people upset about it where I can recommend it as a pic.Yeah so I see you brought up better explain that I just thought of another pic so if you're into that kind of math explanation,type site I recommend checking out the YouTube channel of three blue one Brown.[51:40] There's awesome animated math videos explaining Concepts there's.One playlist in particular about linear algebra that's absolutely awesome,I hate this winter from watching that playlist I learn more about linear algebra than I did and I cannot entire semester in college so great great Channel check that one out.Other pics.I've been I've been reading you know I'm way behind the times in this one but I'm going to read it now becoming Steve Jobs.[52:16] And I'm really enjoying that it's been a great the great biography of Steve Jobs specially when they talk about the next year that I don't know a whole lot about it kind of what went wrong it's really just.Thanks for the for the pics and Matt thanks come on the show but we wish you luck with that rope and we're really happy to see it going well.Yes but it's been a pleasure chatting with you and I appreciate that Jenny coming to show.A man in front of listeners that are sitting at the bad check it out it after pad.com and if you're a developer.Working on after pet sounds interesting to you please do I get in touch with us at the jobs at Astro - hq.com.[53:03] Have a good week.Been with for this segment is provided by Cachefly the world's fastest ET and deliver your content fast with Cachefly visit cachefly.com to learn more.[53:19] Music. 

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