- Brendan Eich (twitter blog)
- Joe Eames (twitter github blog)
- Aaron Frost (twitter github blog)
- AJ ONeal (twitter github blog)
- Jamison Dance (twitter github blog)
- Tim Caswell (twitter github howtonode.org)
- Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up)
01:57 – Brendan Eich Introduction
- [Brendan Eich [Wiki]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich)
- NCSA Mosaic
- NCSA HTTPd
- Lynx (Web Browser)
- Silicon Graphics
- Tom Paquin
- Kipp Hickman
- Sun Microsystems
- Scheme Programming Language
- Rob McCool
- Mike McCool
- Peninsula Creamery, Palo Alto, CA
- Main () and Other Methods (C# vs Java)
- Static in Java, Static Variables, Static Methods, Static Classes 10:38 – Other Languages for Programmers
- Visual Basic
- Web 2.0
- Hidaho Design
- David Ungar
- Craig Chambers
- Lars Bak
- Jamie Zawinski 24:42 – Working with ECMA
- Bill Gates
- Carl Cargill
- Jan van den Beld
- Mike Cowlishaw
- David M. Gay
- Richard Gabriel 31:26 – Naming Mozilla
- Jamie Zawinski
- Godzilla 31:57 – Time-Outs 32:53 – Functions
- John Rose
- Async.io 38:37 – XHR and Microsoft
- Ken Smith
- Brent Noorda
- Ray Noorda
- NCSA File Formats 45:54 – SpiderMonkey
- Brendan Eich and Douglas Crockford – TXJS 2010
- BEA Systems
- John Schneider
- Waldemar Horwat
- Chris Wilson
- Allen Wirfs-Brock
- NDC Oslo 2014
- Eric A. Young
- Tim Hudson
- Digital Styles
- ICQ and AIM
- Ryan Dahl
- Unity Games
- 01:19:43 – Angular’s HTML Customization
- Shumway Project
- IronRuby 01:25:45 – Future of Web and Frameworks
- Epic Games
- WebGL 01:29:39 – ASM.js
- John McCutchen
- Monster Madness
JOE: Do you have a phone in your shoe?
BRENDAN: … No.**
JOE: Hey, everyone.
CHUCK: Aaron Frost.
CHUCK: AJ O’Neal.
AJ: Yo, yo, yo, coming at you live from Boston.
CHUCK: Jamison Dance.
JAMISON: Hey, friends.
CHUCK: Tim Caswell.
CHUCK: I’m Charles Max Wood from DevChat.TV. And this week we have a special guest, Brendan Eich.
CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself real quick for us, Brendan?
AARON: Still perpetuating the lie.
AARON: That’s awesome.
CHUCK: [Imitating old man’s voice] Once upon a time…
BRENDAN: Yeah, you guys should cut me off because it will go on and on. So, the thing you have to know about Netscape is it was a Jim Clark, Marc Andreessen joint. So, it was basically the union of NCSA Mosaic principals plus Lou Montulli from University of Kansas who did the Lynx browser. I think that was spelled L-Y-N-X, which is a text-based browser. But everybody else at Netscape on the first floor was either from NCSA Mosaic or NCSA HTTPd. They were all at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at my alma mater, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. So, Marc Andreessen recruited there heavily. And he paired up with Jim Clark, the founder of Silicon Graphics. So, I was at Silicon Graphics out of grad school in 1985, which was great. It was pre-IPO. It was a hot valley company. This was back when you had technical Unix workstation companies building their own basically CPUs or building their own CPU boards around the Motorola 68020 or 68030 chip. And Sun and other companies have licensed the Stanford University Network Sun-1 architecture. And Andreas Bechtolsheim had given up his PhD to go found Sun with Bill Joy and others. It was a pretty awesome time in the valley. It was before the PC. The PC was out. There was the 8080 or 8086. There was IBM PC but it was kind of a joke. So, for real industrial computing you needed a workstation or a Minicomputer even. There were still minicomputers around then. Digital Equipment Corporation was a thing then. And SGI was turned into a company from a Stanford research project Jim Clark was the professor of, which was building basically what became the GPU. They were building the Graphics Processing Unit as a whole graphics board using VLSI technology. Carver Mead at Cal Tech had written the book. People could make lots of transistors on a single silicon die. And they could build something that was really good at doing lots of graphics operations in parallel. And that’s where Silicon Graphics came from. But by the time the 90s came along, Clark was I think kind of squeezed out of management politics at SGI. He was the chairman but not otherwise empowered. He was annoyed. So, he wanted to do something new. And I’m not sure exactly how, but he got introduced to Marc Andreessen in NCSA. There might have been some venture capitalists involved there. And they hit it off and they thought about doing something, which became Netscape. And the weirdest thing was they went through various ideas. I only know of one that I heard about, they were serious about for a few days or weeks which was, let’s build Nintendo 64 software for modem-connected N64 boxes. And that wasn’t… [Chuckles]
BRENDAN: Looking too good after a few days. So, they decided, no, let’s go make the internet commercially [viable]. Let’s kill Mosaic by making a Mosaic killer browser which will be the killer app, which will actually have security for commercial e-commerce. And that’s what they did. That was Netscape1.0, 1.1. They did things like SSL. They did kill Mosaic. They took all its market share. At first they were called M Com, not Netscape, Mosaic Communications. And I think NCSA’s lawyers came calling and there was a rapid rename to Netscape. And of course when they were founded, because they had Clark as cofounder, he drew from Silicon Graphics’ early talents. So he drew Tom Paquin to manage engineering and Kipp Hickman who was my senior partner when I joined SGI out of grad school as a kernel hacker. And Kipp called me up while I was at MicroUnity Systems Engineering, which is a crazy company I’ll tell you about later. And Kipp said, “Do you want to come join us? It’ll be fun. We’re going to do a Mosaic killer.” And I said, “Oh, I’ve still got some things to finish at MicroUnity.” So, I stayed a year like an idiot and missed out being on the first floor. So, I joined in April 1995 as year into Netscape. When I came onboard, Netscape 1.1 was heading toward release. And because of some weird financial shenanigans, they couldn’t hire me into the group they wanted to hire me into. They had tempted me there, all these Silicon Graphics people. I knew Kipp, and John Giannandrea. They said, “Come and do Scheme in the browser. We need a programming language in the browser. Come and do Scheme.” And Scheme was a language that I only learned through book learning, through Sussman and Steele’s SICP, famous book, ‘Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs’.
AARON: Did you like it though? Did you go, “I like Scheme. I’ll go do that”?
BRENDAN: He’d get a milkshake. He’d drink milk at work. There were a lot of junk calories being consumed. And Netscape also had something I was horrified to learn about that has become standard in the valley, which is the sleeping room. So, Tom Paquin, the engineering first floor manager, would take the sheets home every other day to get cleaned, which was good.
CHUCK: Oh no.
BRENDAN: [Laughs] But people were actually…
AARON: That sounds horrible.
AARON: Can I do a timeout and ask you a question?
BRENDAN: Yeah, absolutely.
AARON: Did they come at you and say, “Brendan, you have a hard stop in 10 days.”
AARON: Or did the 10 days things would just be like, “I worked on it for 10 days and we had the initial prototype”? Or did someone say to you, “You got 10 days, otherwise this is dead”? What’s the 10 days thing?
CHUCK: So, we could have wound up with Java? I love you even more now. That’s all I have to say.
BRENDAN: If it was only Java. The fact is, Java bombed in the client. It took forever to die, but it’s pretty much dead. It’s a source of malware. [Chuckles]
BRENDAN: Chrome and Firefox blacklisted it. It’s gone.
BRENDAN: So yeah, you’re talking about Web 2.0 or the Ajax revolution?
JAMISON: Yeah, yeah.
BRENDAN: 2004 or 2005?
JAMISON: But some of the stuff you describe sounds like that happened in the early days, too.
JOE: That’s funny.
AJ: That’s awesome.
AARON: That’s awesome.
JAMISON: Did any of these workarounds become enshrined into the language and then you regretted them later?
BRENDAN: Yes. [Laughter]
BRENDAN: Many of them. [Laughter]
JOE: What about Visual Basic?
BRENDAN: Visual Basic, no. [Laughter]
CHUCK: I kind of hacked this in and it stayed.
AARON : That’s awesome.
JOE: And 15 years later, people are still fighting over it.
JAMISON: That’s every programmer’s nightmare, right?
CHUCK: It’s so true.
JAMISON: Just the hack [inaudible] that you made.
AJ: I felt a sudden tremor in the force as if a thousand semicolons suddenly screwed up everything. [Laughter]
CHUCK: And like they didn’t do it later on in IE?
BRENDAN: If you follow Visual Basic, there’s this crazy mistake where they blended it into .NET and they called Visual Thread or VB7 and it completely flopped. But even VB6 was incompatible and weirdly different from previous versions. And I was like, “Pot, kettle, black, hello.” [Chuckles]
AARON: Wow. So, AJ wants to know where the name Mozilla came from.
AJ: Yes, I do want to know that.
BRENDAN: That’s actually on the web. So, if you read Jamie Zawinski’s many posts on his site, he named it based on the idea of a Mosaic killer. When Netscape realized they weren’t going to do a Nintendo 64 modem networked software, they said, “Let’s do a Mosaic killer,” and Jamie started musing about Mosaic killer. Giant monster that kills Mosaic, Godzilla, Mozilla. So, that’s where the name Mozilla came from.
AJ: Oh, that’s funny.
AARON: That is cool.
BRENDAN: I feel like I should explain more of the DOM level 0, like setTimeout. Wacky because people use the form that takes a function as the first argument. And then it’s awkward because you put the timeout in milliseconds after that. And then if there are any arguments, actual arguments to the function, you pass them after the timeout. So, they’re interrupted by that timeout value. The original version of setTimeout in Netscape 2 did not have the function argument. It only had a quoted string which was eval-ed. So, you wrote an expression to be evaluated and milliseconds. And in Netscape 3 we added the function form and at that point it was too late to reorder the arguments because you can’t break the web. And so, that’s why it’s function, timeout, arguments. And you could still use the string form.
AJ: I always thought that that was better anyway, to put the function first, because then it’s composable.
BRENDAN: It’s a mixed bag. If you want to have something that applies or does partial application, you end up having to juggle both timeout and the arguments list. But you can do it.
JOE: So, I have a question. Why did you make functions first-class citizens?
CHUCK: So, you mentioned Java again. I just want to clarify because I’m not sure I got my answer out of your story.
BRENDAN: Like I said, Marc wanted to call it Mocha. I didn’t care except I liked Mocha because it was different. I didn’t know of any prior art but apparently there were software trademarks involving the name Mocha. But they were not related to a scripting language. So, Netscape could have probably fought for Mocha. When they hired the marketing guy who said, [inaudible] it’s going to be LiveScript, we have LiveWire which is like a server PHP-like project that would allow you to do configuration management and simple database query-based apps, but [inaudible] really PHP. He wanted to call that LiveWire. So suddenly, everything was Live this and Live that. And I was throwing up in my mouth a little bit. I didn’t like that name at all. [Laughter]
AARON: That’s funny.
CHUCK: Yeah, nowadays Sun, you mean Oracle, you mean, nah, never mind.
JAMISON: It’s so crazy, because it’s such a convoluted story.
JAMISON: You could imagine ways where XHR wouldn’t exist and then the web would be totally different.
BRENDAN: I’ll tell you, having a hidden form or a link you click was a pain. XHR for all its funkiness and crap like the synchronous option, it’s better than [chuckles] what was there before. But all of it’s random. It’s like evolutionary biology. You don’t really get to choose. You just take what works and you’re lucky if you survive.
JOE: So, was XHR all of Microsoft’s invention?
BRENDAN: It was. But again, it was cloned, it was filling a vacuum that was left when they kicked Java out and they needed to keep Outlook Web Access working. And some of it had the flavor of Microsoft and Visual Basic informed API. Some of it was based pretty closely on the Java async I/O class that they booted.
JOE: Did you ever look at this baby that you created and at certain points wonder if something was going to kill it off, like say Flash for example?
BRENDAN: This guy is on the web. He’s got his website called Javanko.com and he’s named after his ancestors going back to thousands of years and Sun lawyers come up and say, “You must cease and desist using the name Javanko. It’s not your name. It starts with J-A-V-A. It’s our name.” And he said, “Get out of here. It’s my ancestor’s name.” So, Sun was stupid. They didn’t want to give the name away to the standards body. So, Ecma said, “Oh, we’ll call it ECMAScript.” And once of the Microsoft guys, I forget his name, said, “That’s not a really good name. It sounds like a skin disease.” [Laughter]
AJ: It does.
CHUCK: So, why’d you call it SpiderMonkey?
BRENDAN: [Laughs] There’s a Wikipedia page which obviously somebody from Netscape has over-edited because it half-explains this but it doesn’t quite link to the correct explanation. If you look for Beavis and Butt-head Tom Anderson… [Chuckles]
BRENDAN: Spider monkey.
CHUCK: [Laughs] Okay.
BRENDAN: You will be enlightened.
BRENDAN: The name was given by Chris Houck, Netscape cofounder.
AARON: So, I want to go back to this Ecma thing. I watched some talks at Yahoo where you and Douglas Crockford both gave two different explanations of this falling out. And I think that you compared it to the Lord of the Rings.
BRENDAN: Oh, this was the fourth edition falling out?
AARON: Yeah, yeah.
BRENDAN: Yeah, alright. [Sighs]
AARON: And he compared it to something like The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, didn’t he?
BRENDAN: No, that was me also. [Laughs]
BRENDAN: That was my TXJS 2010 talk, I think.
BRENDAN: So yeah, Doug, I don’t know, Doug didn’t have a good metaphor for it. I made it Lord of the Rings. I actually had lots of fun trying to find Doug’s avatar. And I started with Yoda, but I realized he was too short. [Laughter]
AARON: It’s a toy. The web’s a toy.
CHUCK: That’s right.
BRENDAN: So, it was like “Dang it.” It was like poker and we didn’t bluff hard enough. [Laughter]
BRENDAN: It not only had black and blue theme with circular buttons, it had ICQ and AIM and other AOL incrustations. But fundamentally, it was based on this crashy, buggy, slow version of Gecko. And so, the Mozilla leaders, like Mitchell and myself, were like, “No, not 1.0. You shouldn’t ship this yet.” The Netscape people living in fear of the AOL masters in Dulles, Virginia were like, “We have to ship or morale will fail,” and we were like, “No, morale’s going to be bad if you ship.” And what they really meant is their necks were on the line as basically the acquisition that had to deliver some value to the mother ship. So, they shipped and it was crappy and it got panned. And I think there were some executive beheadings. [Chuckles]
BRENDAN: And Netscape lived on for another year or two, 2001, 2002. And finally we got Mozilla 1.0 done in 2002. And the best I can say is that it didn’t suck. At that point, you’re not looking for ultimate victory. You’re looking for something that you can build on. It was a stable base for API compatibility. It was a stable release. And Netscape did a version 7 or a 6.1 or 6.2. I can’t remember the number, that actually didn’t suck either but it was too late for them. And then a year later in 2003, AOL pulled the plug on Netscape.
CHUCK: Did the ICQ integration say, “Uh-oh”?
BRENDAN: I think it did. There were a lot of things that were jammed in that were closed source. It was not good. And the funny thing was, Mozilla doing open source only, at first we didn’t even provide binaries. You had to get your own compiler. You were using GCC or EGCS, if you guys remember what that is, a fork of GCC on Linux.
BRENDAN: Or you were using MinGW or Microsoft Visual C, or this was pre-Xcode. You’d use the Apple tools and PowerPlant, the user interface toolkit from CodeWarrior. You used CodeWarrior on Mac. This was old school. So, at some point we decided we’re going to do builds because we need testers who don’t have compilers to get the builds and test them for us. We don’t want to make everybody be a developer who knows how to compile their own bits. And so, by producing builds Mozilla started producing product. We didn’t even know it. But our Mozilla browser suite didn’t have ICQ in it. And people actually liked it better. So, we started getting adoption. And at some point, I can’t remember when, 2001 or 2002, we actually had more users than Netscape did. [Laughs] So, at some point we were getting the signal, very real signal from the market, the users, saying “You should do your own browser.” And that’s when I think David Hyatt who went to Apple in 2001 who was one of the senior engineers there who did a lot of what became XUL, he and Blake Ross who went to Facebook and a few other people decided, screw all those Netscape browser suite 90’s era application suite where you have mail and news and ICQ and browser and editor and address book, like a Swiss army knife application. But just do a browser and make it really awesome. And they called it Mozilla/Browser. And then I think I was involved in this, that we said let’s call it Phoenix, like from the ashes and…
AJ: I remember when it was called Phoenix.
BRENDAN: Yeah. We kind of incubated it inside Netscape and sheltered it from management. And they were doing things, even Dave Hyatt who wrote Chimera which became the Camino Mac-only browser, he was practicing how to build a tab browser, how to build widgets, UI widgets in a cross-platform way, stuff that he then went to Apple and worked at Safari on. That all was making fools of Netscape management because they were still polishing the turd that was their application suite. [Laughter]
BRENDAN: So, we ended up building what became Firefox as this pirate ship inside Netscape. And then when AOL finally laid everybody off, Mitchell and I knew that was coming through backchannels, because Mitchell had already been laid off and gone to work for Mitch Kapor, the guy who created Lotus 1, 2, 3, big investor, very well off. Mitch was employing Mitchell to work part-time on Mozilla, part-time on the Open Source Applications Foundation, which was basically, I think Mitch was inspired by Mozilla and also Mitch always wants to recreate Lotus Agenda, if you know what that is. It’s a PIM, personal information manager. So, OSAF was trying to do that as open source 12, 14 years ago. And Mitchell was working on it, but she was also working on Mozilla. Mitch Kapor knew one of the early AOL guys, Ted Leonsis, very nice guy. Business guy, not a technical guy. Very well off, of course he owns the Washington Capitals. Whatever. I like Ted, but Mitch and Ted ran into each other at the very first D Conference and Ted was like, “Mitch, I have this thing called Mozilla. I don’t know what to do with it inside AOL.” And Mitch who coincidentally, or maybe this was fate, hired Mitchell Baker when she was laid off by Netscape/AOL, said “I’ll tell you exactly what to do with it,” because Mitchell had been talking to him. So, through these backchannels also through IBM we knew that AOL was going to drop the axe on Netscape. They were going to lay off everybody. Netscape had hundreds of employees in this building in California. AOL’s back in Dulles, Virginia. And they sent out some hatchet man VP. He had security goons behind him. They didn’t have individual meetings with people. They just did it Jonestown-style. They had everybody in one room, except for the people who went to the other room. The other room was much smaller. So, you had this weird day of event where the email went out and people were saying, “We’re all supposed to go to the big room,” and then somebody said, “Well, I’m going to the little room.” And then people said, “Wait, is that good or bad? I’m going to the big room. You’re going to the little room. Which one’s good?” [Laughs] It pretty soon became clear that going to the little room was good and going to the big room was bad, because in the big room the hatchet man said, “You’re all fine people and you’re all fired.” And the little room involved people like me and David Baron and the build guy, Leaf and I think somebody else still at Mozilla. It might have been Asa Dotzler. We were all sitting there and we were not going to get laid off right away. We were going to have three more months and we were going to transition the Mozilla assets to a non-profit which involved the trademarks and some build machines. This is pre-Amazon Web Services, so we have an Amiga or something. I don’t know. We had a SunOS machine. We had an IRIX machine. We had PC. We had Macs. We had a very few rack-mounted machines we had to do our continuous integration on. And by the way, Mozilla did pioneer that with Tinderbox. It’s something that’s a staple now and it’s been done better. But at the time, Tinderbox and continuous integration was a Mozilla feature that I think was new to the open source world. A lot of open source…
BRENDAN: Repositories wouldn’t even build if you went to their CVS. I guess I’m coming to another punchline, which is when we spun out Mozilla, we only had 12 people and we had Phoenix. Firebird, remember that name, also was contested, so we became…
AARON: Yep. I remember Firebird, yeah.
AARON: That was awesome.
AARON: That’s a lot of good history that I think…
AJ: Brendan, I don’t know if you know this, but you’re kind of a big deal.
AARON: Yeah. [Laughter]
BRENDAN: In some ways, I’m the person who was there at the time and had to do it. It’s true that nobody else in Netscape would have done it. I was the language buff and the fast implementer. But all those mistakes, I’m sure there are people elsewhere in the world who could have done a better job. But they weren’t there. Also, maybe they would have insisted on more time, and that would have failed. Or, maybe if they got that time, would have been better for it. But I didn’t do that either. [Laughs] So, it’s an accident but it’s I think a happy accident in terms of the developer community. A lot of the good ideas and the bug fixes and the optimizations and the extensions, the API extensions especially, came from developers. So, I couldn’t have done it without the developers.
JOE: That’s a great point.
CHUCK: [Laughs] Awesome.
AARON: That’s awesome.
JOE: Angular or Ember?
JAMISON: Oh, geez. [Laughter]
BRENDAN: Like I said, it would be a disaster. If you imagine the W3C trying to pick a winner and standardize it, it would be like they would pick Dojo right when jQuery was coming out. It would be a mistake. So, I don’t really have a dog in that fight. I actually like things about Ember that I’ve seen. I also like things about React, which is in some ways less ambitious because React just says, “We’re the view. You can use us with Ember or Angular.” So, people are starting to realize that MVC, the C is vestigial. The controller’s vestigial. And the view, there are various ways to skin that cat and I like the React way of using virtual DOM diffing and immutability. And the work Rich Hickey did with Clojure which has borne fruit in many areas based on lots of prior art about immutability solving the time versus state problem, that’s really appealing to me. Swannodette, if you guys [inaudible] this.
JAMISON: David Nolen.
JOE: That’s a very intelligent answer to a silly question that I asked as a joke. [Laughter]
JOE: But I love that answer. That’s great. I do want to ask you specifically, what do you think with what Angular does with customizing HTML, writing your own HTML?
JOE: Right, yeah.
CHUCK: Is that the direction we’re going here with this?
BRENDAN: Trying to start over.
JOE: Well, they almost killed it with IronRuby, right?
BRENDAN: The whole thing where they were doing Silverlight in multiple languages and a .NET light, it didn’t work out. That was the same era as the Flash/Tamarin ActionScript era.
JOE: Right, right.
BRENDAN: The web endures. And yet, you have Zuckerberg two years ago saying the web was a big mistake for us for two years. We wasted a lot of money on it. But he buried his own lead in the same paragraph. He said the web’s still pretty important and pretty optimistic. It’s still bigger for us on the m site than the sum of all our native apps at that time. Now, they’ve gone on to have better native apps. But their native apps aren’t even fully native. If you look at the Facebook iOS app, it has a lot of web views in it. So clearly, the web’s important. You look at the Amazon app on iOS. It’s got a native home screen of course. But once you get into the catalog, the marketplace, it’s web. It has to be, because Amazon has this incredible information architecture that they already mapped HTML in very detailed ways, like the cross-through-ed price with the cheaper price or the Kindle price. There’s no way you’re going to pay somebody to recreate all that presentation in Cocoa Touch. It’s just insane. You wouldn’t do it. You get it wrong…
AJ: To me, it seems like a lot of this native stuff is a step backwards. And I hear a lot people saying that the prediction is that the web is going to bow down to native. But it’s like, well then, there are so many different native frameworks. To me, it seems like their time would be better spent in optimizing the browser on that mobile device than coming out with Swift, for example. What are your thoughts on that?
JOE: So, why aren’t we hearing more about ASM lately?
JOE: Awesome. That’s probably a good note to wrap up on, don’t you think?
CHUCK: Yeah, probably.
JAMISON: This has been fantastic.
CHUCK: Yeah, absolutely.
AJ: Huzzah! [Chuckles]
CHUCK: Thanks for coming, Brendan.
BRENDAN: Oh, look at the time. [Laughs]
CHUCK: Alright, well should we go ahead and do some picks?
CHUCK: Alright, Aaron, do you want to start us with the picks?
AARON: Yeah. I got three picks this week. The first one is I tried it out just to see what a what, but it’s called hapi.js. And it’s Walmart’s version of Express. I hate to say it like that. Walmart guys probably are like, “Screw you, man.” But it’s Walmart’s framework on top of Node to do REST API and I thought it was awesome. I really liked it.
JOE: Yeah, you normally don’t want to call something the Walmart version of anything, right?
JOE: That’s not a selling point.
AARON: Yeah, no, no, no.
CHUCK: Awesome. AJ, what are your picks?
AJ: First of all, I’m going to pick that just perfect moment when Brendan said, “Cool story bro” talking about Chrome Apps. [Laughter]
AJ: Because that was epic in ways that only the long term listeners will understand, because Frosty is on here. And he’s always “Cool story bro”-ing people about stuff. And Chrome Apps are his thing.
AARON: I loved it. I thought it was awesome.
AJ: [Laughs] Oh, that was hilarious. My other pick for today, actually I’m going to pick two more things. One, I’m going to pick ‘Don’t Stop Me Now’ by Queen.
AJ: Yes, because I also felt that that was very applicable in that moment. Brandon was just passionate and going and going. And then Frosty just had to cut him off. He was having a good time and he just had to cut him off. I’m sorry, I’m picking a little much. And then the last thing I’m going to pick is Trending.fm. I don’t even think it’s in public beta yet, but I know these guys that are in this incubator and they’re working on Trending.fm. And it’s this cool music site where you can tune in and you basically create a group radio station kind of thing. One guy is the DJ and then everybody else can throw song suggestions in the chat window and the DJ guy can click add. And so, great for the office type scenario or something like that, or if you just know somebody who’s really into music. You love their style and you just want to listen to what they listen to all day.
CHUCK: Alright, Jamison, what are your picks?
JAMISON: Oh, man. I have more music. This is a music-themed episode, or music-themed picks at least. One of them is a soundtrack for a little arena shooter game. The game is pretty sweet, too. But the soundtrack is my real pick. It’s called ‘WE ARE DOOMED’ and it’s just really good synth-y electronic music. It’s my programming soundtrack for the past week. My other pick is another video game soundtrack. There’s this PlayStation 3 game that just came out called Hohokum I think. It’s one of those weird artsy games that make you feel superior playing it even though it’s not very much fun. [Chuckles] But the soundtrack is another fantastic piece of music. It’s not as synth-y, but I don’t know. They’re both good listens for programming. Those are my picks.
CHUCK: Awesome. Joe, what are your picks?
JOE: Alright, so I better stick with the music theme and pick some music. I’m going to try to be a little less pedantic than the rest of you, though. [Laughs] I’m going to pick Nashville Outlaws.
AARON: Oh, geez.
JOE: A tribute to Motley Crue, a new album that I’m not sure when it came out. It came out in the last year. I just noticed it and it’s got a whole bunch of country artists singing the hits from Motley Crue. And I absolutely love it because I was a huge Motley Crue fan back in the day. And so, hearing it done by these country artists with totally different type of sound to it but still the songs that I know and love, I absolutely loved listening to it. Not really great to program to, because you just want to sing. But still a great album. So, I’ll pick that. And then my second and final pick is going to be Audible. I was recently using AudioBooks.com. Bought some audio books. It was nice, because they were $12 every time I wanted to buy an additional one and didn’t have any kind of screwy plans the way that Audible does. But their app completely blows. And after I got the Audible app, I was like, okay, I’m never listening and using the other AudioBooks.com app again until they improve it. So, I’m also I guess in essence calling AudioBooks.com out on the floor saying, “Make your app better,” because the Audible app really rocks. And this would be my second and final pick.
CHUCK: Alright. I just have one pick. I’ve been working on some subscription stuff. I should have it out here within the next few weeks. Anyway, what I’ve been using to collect payments is Stripe. And I just love Stripe. It is really nice to integrate with, does subscriptions and one-off payments. And I actually have it set up right now at DevChat.TV/donate. But anyway, it’s just really easy to put together and integrate with. And they have libraries for freaking every language. So, go check them out. Stripe.com. Brendan, what are your picks?
BRENDAN: Oh, Guardians of the Galaxy.
CHUCK: [Laughs] I love that movie.
AARON: [Chuckles] Which hero are you?
BRENDAN: I am Groot. [Laughter]
AARON: I was hoping you’d say that, bro.
CHUCK: [Laughs] Is that all of them?
BRENDAN: Yeah. I’m not nearly as hip as you guys. I’m old school. I still use vim in the terminal.
CHUCK: I use Emacs in the terminal. We can fight later.
BRENDAN: I used Emacs in 1979 and ’80 on DEC minicomputers. It was Richard Stallman’s Emacs. It didn’t have Elisp. It had TECO, this crazy stack language. You should look it up. I switched to vim and I can’t go back. I can do both. I can do Emacs if I have to.
CHUCK: Yeah, that’s pretty much what I say about vim, so.
BRENDAN: [Chuckles] It’s true. Typing your name in vim is very destructive whereas in Emacs it’s constructive.
CHUCK: Yeah. [Laughter]
CHUCK: Alright. Well, thanks for coming on the show. We really appreciate you taking the time.
JAMISON: Yeah, this was incredible. I’m really glad I got to hear the history lessons.
BRENDAN: My pleasure. I look forward to seeing it all online.
CHUCK: Yeah, next week.**