242 JSJ Visual Studio and .NET with Maria Naggaga

1:15 – Introducing Maria Naggaga

2:32 – .NET new developers

3:55 – NYC Microsoft bootcamp

6:25 – Building a community of .NET programmers

7:25 – Why would a Javascript developer care about .NET?

9:30 – Getting started with .NET

15:50 – The power of asking questions

22:45 – Recruiting new programmers to the industry

37:00 – Javascript and C#

48:30 – Running .NET on Raspberry Pi


Super Cartography Bros album by OverClocked ReMix (AJ)

Daplie (AJ)

Daplie Wefunder (AJ)

The Eventual Millionaire (Charles)

Devchat Conferences (Charles)

15- Minute Calls (Charles)

Codeland Conference (Maria)

March by Congressman John Lewis (Maria)

Microsoft Virtual Academy (Maria)

This episode is sponsored by

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Charles:        Hey everybody and welcome to JavaScript Jabber. This week on our panel we have AJ O’Neal.

AJ:                Yo, yo, yo. Coming at you live from the Microsoft office at Times Square-ish area. That’s where I am taking back the internet today.

Charles:        That’s right. I’m Charles Max Wood from Devchat.tv. We’re at the Microsoft Office 11 Times Square. Which is kind of fun because I don’t think AJ or Ryan have ever been to New York City before. We’re here with Maria. Do you want me to introduce yourself really quickly?

Maria:           I’m Maria Naggaga. I’m a program manager on the Visual Studio in .NET team and New York is my area. I am based in New York so welcome to my town.

Charles:        Cool. Thanks. [00:01:58] said something just briefly, explained that you do some kind of evangelism and work with new programmers. Do you want to kind of explain what you do here at Microsoft?

Maria:           Yeah. It’s really interesting. When I first joined Microsoft four years ago, I was the only evangelist in New York, I’m right out of college so wow that was a huge thing because I was in a brand new country, in a new state and telling people about, all the awesome things at Microsoft we’re doing. When I was recruited into this thing, one of the challenges I presented to Scott [00:02:29] and Scott Hunter was how come we don’t have enough net new developers in .NET. I just took it upon myself to actually go into that field, go and reach out to places and say, “Let’s teach the .NET staff what does it look like and can we have a Boot Camp or a course, or an online course  that gets people engaged and excited about .NET Core.

Charles:        Gotcha.

Maria:           Evangelism-ish but it’s more specific where I’m going to specific places to get people excited about .NET and feed their feedback right into the product which is amazing.

Charles:        What do you mean by net new developer?

Maria:           When I think about net new developer, I think about developers that we typically haven’t reached in the past, the people who if they heard about .NET or C#, they would literally rolls their eyes at me. I’m talking about the places we’ve never been. When you talk about .NET to a lot of newer developers, they think enterprise, they think close platform, they think strictly Visual Studio on Windows. When you can talk about .NET Core now, you think about being happy wherever you want to be and also the barrier of entry is so much lower that it was in the past. If you think about if you want to be a .NET developer, let’s say four years ago you say, “Okay, do you have Windows?” “No.” “Okay. Go get parallels on your machine. Get Windows. Then get Visual Studio.” In the next couple of hours, in about six hours, when Visual Studio is installed, let’s learn some .NET. It takes an entire day before you can actually get someone up and running with .NET but now the point of entry is just so much easier. You can go and ‘Hello World’ at dot.net, right there in the browser. You have Visual Studio code, click, click, it’s installed. .NET knew the command lines CLI, just making things so much easier us to have those conversations which we couldn’t in the past.

Charles:        That makes sense. I’m also going to ask you a question I think I know the answer to mainly because I have a friend that I think worked in that program but isn’t there some kind of Microsoft Boot Camp here in New York?

Maria:           Microsoft Boot Camp in New York?

Charles:        Yeah. Some kind of training that you do in New York for new programmers.

Maria:           For new programmers? I have never seen that. What Microsoft tends to do is there’s a lot of outreach by everyone at the company. People love to have students and people have tried to redo their careers. So they bring them in for a course for a day and they learn something new. It doesn’t necessarily have to be in Microsoft specific things. I’ve done Boot Camps, not even Boot Camps but workshops in Python using Visual Studio. It’s just making sure that you expose people to technology. The Boot Camps I’m talking about right now is going to Coding Dojo or Flatiron and say, “Let’s teach someone how to be a .NET developer for three months. How do we make sure that not only do they learn .NET but they’re able to be successful with .NET and get jobs afterwards?” That’s the next step. How do we make sure that those guys have jobs? That’s the most important thing for me.

Charles:        Right. In fact we’re going to have [00:05:31] on Ruby Rogues in a couple of weeks.

Maria:           He is amazing.

Charles:        He’s really cool.

Maria:           He’s one of those people who’s just so passionate about truly helping people how to learn. He’s probably one of my favorite people.

Charles:        One of my Ruby Rogues co-host, she’s not a co-host anymore Saron Yitbarek.

Maria:           One of my besties. Yes.

Charles:        She was on the show for quite a long time. I’ve been [00:05:55] podcast. It’s interesting because I know she worked for Microsoft for a while. I’ve seen all these pieces of what you’re talking about and it’s interesting to see that Microsoft is involved in building this community of programmers and reaching out to communities that as you said typically in the past, you’d hear, “Oh, you want me to learn how to write .NET.” It’s like, “Ehh.”

Maria:           I was one of those people. I was initially one of those people that first time I saw .NET application, I was working at [00:06:29] this was before BlackBerry, this was before iPhone, I was an intern. I remember building a .NET application and saying, “I don’t know if I want to do that again.” Because the process, as much as it was good and you actually saw the speed and the performance and you look at your outcome and you’re like, “I’m so proud of this work.” Understanding the entire ecosystems is a little bit overwhelming when I compared it to different things I was learning at different internships. Now, I’m able to understand it better maybe it’s exposure, but it came in 2014 when they announced the .NET Core actually existed. That’s when I got excited about .NET again because someone told me, “You should learn .NET. You can do it in a Mac now.” I was like, “Never!” That was literally my reaction. And I was like, “I don’t think so.” I was at Microsoft at that time and I did it and I was like, “This is pretty cool.” I wrote a blog post about it and I tweeted about it and Scott Hanselman saw my tweet and said, “Who are you? We should have coffee,” And that was it.

Charles:        That sounds so like Scott.

Maria:           “Who are you? We should have coffee.” That was the first time I met Scott Hanselman. It’s been an interesting journey and just when you see the number of jobs that are available for junior developers in the space, you want people to take that opportunity.

Charles:        Yes, definitely. You have a question AJ?

AJ:                I don’t yet.

Charles:        I keep rapid firing I’m like, “I want to give him a chance to talk!”

AJ:                Now, you put me on the spot. I mean there were things that I’m thinking about. Give me a minute.

Charles:        Keep going.

AJ:                Hold on. Give me a second because I might come up with something. One thing I want to know is why should a JavaScript developer care about .NET?

Maria:           That’s a really good question because a lot of people ask about all languages. Why should you care about this language or that language? They way I think about it it’s just one more thing to add on to your skill set. Being able to do JavaScript, I think JavaScript is the most forgiving, most loving language out there ever. It’s brilliant. Let’s face that. You see your results immediately but let’s say you want to expand your opportunities beyond just JavaScript and you want a server-side language that is actually nice and easy to use now, not in the past but now, why not learn it? Know some client language and you have a server language. It can be .NET, it can also be Ruby, and it can also be Python. Hopefully .NET is there now and in an environment that you can use it. It’s more of an exposure, just expose yourself to it.

AJ:                If I was to fire up a box on DigitalOcean and [00:09:32] install, what do I install to get .NET platform going?

Maria:           That’s a cool thing. Now, you know it runs everywhere.

AJ:                Yeah, the motto of any dev, any platform, any device.

Maria:           Exactly. If you go to dot.net, I don’t know if you have been to that website. Have you?

AJ:                I don’t think that I have.

Maria:           You should go there

AJ:                I’ll go right now.

Maria:           I’m excited about the domain name, dot.net. It just rolls off the tongue. When you got to dot.net, one of the things I like about the experience was that one, if you’re on Ubuntu, it will notice that [00:10:15] platform and show the instructions for your specific platform. It’s about five steps to be done. It’s the same if you want to do it in Docker. If you want to set up something on Docker or on a Mac, or on Windows, the whole point is that it’s really easy and even you go to a different platform, the setup changes because it’s a different operating system but the way you actually build an application is exactly the same. If you’re a person who likes Yeoman and use a lot of Yeoman generators, you can use Yeoman in ASP.NET and you get ASP.NET full framework application, not full framework but ASP.NET full MVC Core application. If you want to do it with the .NET commands, you can do that as well, .NET type new web. The whole thing is the same experience on multiple platforms. That’s the best thing. In the past, from what I understand, you have to use Mono.

Charles:        You use Mono.

AJ:                The only .NET that I’ve written was for another company, we were integrating with another company and they were C# evs and for some reason, they couldn’t figure out how to do an http request so I had to figure it out for them and send in the sample code and be like, “This is the code. This is what it needs to run. These are the parameters.” And it happened to run on their machine as well which I was very excited about.

Maria:           [00:11:40] them now. Even for people who have been using Mono in the past, I never used Mono but I can’t imagine your skill sets changing that differently to adapt to what we’re doing right now. That’s a cool thing. Now you know that what you’re doing is in line with what the .NET team and the C# team is doing as well to extend the platform.

Charles:        Well, we’re talking about before the fact that you can write it anywhere on any machine with any infrastructure you want to set up, it really does help bring people in. If you’re a former JavaScript developer or a current JavaScript developer or something else, you can make that connection and just get in and get involved, and get it running.

Maria:           Exactly. Another thing that we want to make sure is that when you work [00:12:32] ASP.NET Core, I go on people to assume that you have to know ASP.NET framework. That’s a big assumption, “Oh, but I don’t know framework and I haven’t been using it for a number of years. How do I get started?” I think that was also a very negative reception of Microsoft technology in general. I have to have years of knowledge before I can actually build my first application. I’ve only built a full framework application once and that was in 2007. I came to ASP.NET Core and I was able to restart without any prior knowledge. Sometimes I catch myself when I’m talking to my boss or my peers who have been doing this for a long time, I say, “Please don’t refer to things in the past.” We actually did a MBA course where before we get started, I talk to everyone who’s going to be involved, I was like, “Please don’t say remember when….” Because the moment you say that, someone who’s coming to this for the very first time is going to think, “Okay, let me Google that with Bing or Bingle it.”

Charles:        Bingle it. I love it.

Maria:           And figure out what it is. That’s another cool thing with ASP.NET Core and .NET Core in general is no assumption of knowledge and they work really, really hard to make sure they do that where you can actually come fresh facedand say, “Okay, I want to learn .NET, never seen any of these before. Let’s go.” I think that’s a huge thing.

Charles:        That’s really big. I know people get into, I mean I’m pretty involved in the community in the JavaScript community and just people coming in and then it’s either—with JavaScript it seems to be more future phasing where they start learning the current iteration of JavaScript that’s in the browser which is a ECMAScript 5 and then people start talking about ECMAScript 6 or ECMAScript 15 something.

AJ:                2020, 2028.

Charles:        Then they’re talking about TypeScript or Dart or whatever. It’s like, “Okay, where am I supposed to end up?” In Ruby, “Remember the battle days, Ruby 1.8.6? Oh man.” And we’re on 2.3

AJ:                Those weren’t bad days.

Charles:        Well, things are better. It’s the same thing. Then they’re like, “Well, do I need to know about Ruby 1.8?” The answer is no but the fact that it’s there and you kind of want to feel like part of the in crowd and be a part of those conversations, you almost feel like you have to go and learn and all that stuff.

Maria:           That’s unfortunate because I think you only need to know when it becomes necessary. A really good example was my demo yesterday that I did at Connect. They’re talking about, “Oh, there are no more [00:15:23].” I was like, “What was that?” I remember when the demo was first presented to me. I was like, “Oh, the CS [00:15:31] file looks really nice. That looks amazing.” I was like, “That looks nice.” And then someone stopped me and said, “Do you understand how bad it was before?” If I had started two years ago and I looked at .NET Core, and I had to go and see it, “Oh, it was so horrible in the past.” That would’ve actually stopped me. I think people will acquire knowledge when it is necessary. As long as you’re, not competent but you know what you’re doing, it will naturally come and that’s why it’s important that when you’re talking to people who are instructors in Boot Camp but they’re also aware about that.

I think that’s where Boot Camps have kind of got it right. They’re training you for the job versus they’re training you for being tied at industry like, “You want to be a mobile developer. Okay. What can we do to make sure that you are the most successful mobile developer that you can be?” I did computer science so sometimes I’m naturally inquisitive about the way things work and I can go off tangent quite a bit. For example [00:16:35] she went to Flatiron and she build this  application, she’s done by the end of the day and I’m done the next day because I was thinking about how the compilers work and how that works. I just need to get this done.

Charles:        That’s the thing that I’m always telling new people. I really enjoy coaching new people. I have things setups so that people who listen to the podcast can get 15 minutes with me either on Monday afternoon or Wednesday afternoon. No questions asked. They just hit scheduled once and they’re on my calendar. It’s funny because about 75% of people who have come to Boot Camp or self-taught or somewhat new and yeah, it’s funny because they’re like, “Well, I don’t know all the things that everybody’s talking about.” I’m like, “Look, do you know enough to solve these problems?” The answer is generally yes and I’m like, “Well then, you’re hireable now and the other stuff that you have to learn, you have enough core knowledge to get the rest. You can pick it up.” That’s exactly what you were saying where it’s like, “Look, I know enough to solve a problem and then I’ll pick up the stuff I don’t know.”

Maria:           Exactly.

Charles:        It’s funny just how much people feel like they have to know versus what will actually get them through the job.

Maria:           I think we’re still thinking of like programming as an individual thing versus a community thing. That’s why things like GitHub have been so influential in making people, forcing people to literally work together on a piece of code and the joy of asking questions. I would always tell people there’s a joy in asking a question versus like if you have a question, just ask me. It’s literally a joy when you ask a question because it takes you from, “I don’t want to Google this until I die.” Versus “I’m going to go ask someone who has experience. I’m going to solve this in 10 minutes.” I had this issue, I kind of don’t remember anymore. I just sent a message to, an IM to David Fowler. I was like, “David, do you know how to this?” He’s like, “Yes, a, b, c done.” Something that I was actually spending the entire evening just searching and you just asked a person and they just get me the information. This is joy in asking and I think with Microsoft being open source as well with the .NET Core, I think we are also embracing the joy of asking questions from the community and getting questions in the community. I think you’ve seen how the engineers are like, “It doesn’t make sense for me to set up the .NET like this.” Yes or no. It’s like when people do it with Instagram. Do you like green shirt or blue shirt? It’s really interesting.

Charles:        Well, the other thing is yeah, if you don’t have somebody, you can just reach out and touch and say, “Hey, I don’t know this. Stack overflow, there’s GitHub issues. Slack channels,” It’s just all these places where people are happy to help and you don’t have to have all the answers.

Maria:           No you don’t. We’re at a time now, where you don’t have all the answers. I remember when I first learned how to code. This was maybe 2002, 2003. If you had to get something and I was in Uganda, I literally had to get a book, you have to open it up and hope that the answer was somewhere there. There was no searching for it on the internet because people are still going to internet cafes to find out answers. You really need to look at a book and hopefully the answer was in there. But right now, everything’s on the touch of the hand. Your First Pull Request is another really good one. I don’t know if you guys have heard about it.

AJ:                Is that the article written by [00:20:15]?

Maria:           Yes. Be comfortable with your first pull request. People ask, “I don’t understand how Git-Clone works.” “Oh, I’m so excited to help people. How do I merge or branch, those are [00:20:28]

AJ:                I actually took from, I don’t know if it’s that article or the companion article, but he mentions some Git tags that he suggests that you use for people to do their first pull request for like easy tasks like correcting spelling mistakes in documentation or whatever. I actually opened up a couple of those types of issues on some of my repost and just tag them. I think it was first timers only and then up for grabs is the other one. I just went and put those on some of my issues and then they started showing up in these other feeds that people are looking at. And I actually had some people come in and fix things. It would have taken me two seconds but it’s like, “Eh, it’s not that important and I don’t want to do it right now.” It was worth putting the tag on it but not worth actually doing it, for me, but somebody else did it and they felt great and I was like, “Sweet. I got a contributor.”

Maria:           Imagine how empowering that is for a person.

Charles:        Absolutely. Especially since I’ve seen on a lot of these reposts on GitHub or whatever, the fact that you created the repo, even if it does something really simple, they kind of see you as this expert and so they get validated by an expert which is really awesome.

Maria:           Which is most huge because I think I had the same thing with Coding Dojo where—I don’t know if you guys remember Nourished Dinner. I think that was like tne of the first ASP.NET MVC applications. It was written by Phil Haack, Scott Hanselman, Scott Guthrie, and Jon Galloway. It was an ASP.NET I think 1 something. It was a really old version. I worked on transitioning it to the .NET Core. Coding Dojo is one of the first pulls that is teaching .NET Core. One of the first .NET new people of [00:22:16] .NET Core. One of the students looked at my [00:22:18] and said, “You should actually upgrade this to 1.1.” I was like, “Okay, go do it.” It was the first time that I only had two weeks of learning .NET Core she upgraded it to 1.1. Isn’t that huge?

Charles:        That’s awesome.

Maria:           I was like, “This is amazing!” I could’ve done this in two seconds but she pointed it out to me. She’s like, “Excuse me, should I actually upgrade this to 1.1” I’ll say,”Oh yeah, why don’t you do it? She did and she was like, “I just upgraded an entire application to ASP.NET 1.1” I was like, “That’s big.”

Charles:        That’s awesome.

Maria:           That’s pretty big.

Charles:        One question  that I’m wondering about we’ve talked a lot about people who have either come into the community or being open to other communities but how do we get new programmers? How do we get people who are doing other things, they have other jobs or they don’t have jobs to say, “Oh, programming. I can learn that,” And get them into our ecosystem so that we can start training them and getting them to contribute to the world of code.

Maria:           I think some of the Boot Camps are doing that really, really well. I really like what Flatiron School is doing. I have friends who have gone through that program, who have gone from $20,000 to like $70,000 a year and the way we do that is one, Boot Camps are really expensive. They’re really expensive.

Charles:        Yeah they are.

Maria:           They’re so expensive and there’s no [00:23:39] for it so being able as people who are active in communities as developers who have been in the industry for a number of years, we should probably look into how do we help the Boot Camps standardize so we can have more people go into them so they can apply it to things like loans. That’s the one thing that I would really like to see because we have the Boot Camps doing it but they’re all instructors and they’re all really great instructors but they need the help of people in the community.

The number of times and the Boot Camps love the fact that they have someone on the product team. It’s like, “Oh, I built .NET Core, I built Visual Studio. I worked on C# and this is what you need to become successful 3, .NET developer. We appreciate that because that a real industry insight. We need to go beyond industry insight and also provide panels and backups and maybe like phone booths that actually helps standardize the way people are learning different programming languages so we can have more people coming in because we can tune it to almost vocational training. We have more people coming in. We’re able to get the scholarships they need to go through. I’m really working how do we get [00:24:51] who are coming to Seattle trained and getting jobs and they’ve been working with different organizations and NGOs to help them get funding but how do we make sure that we create such occasions and standardizations around getting these people jobs. Unless you go to a very popular Boot Camp, how do I show, “Oh I’m qualified, they [00:25:12] are qualified in Python and the way we do that is standardization.”

AJ:                Interestingly you bring this up because somebody just posted on Twitter last night about why are people complaining about technology taking away jobs? I responded to that because there’s always going to be a bottom 20%. You can raise the bottom 20%, it’s still the bottom 20% but when technology takes away jobs, it widens the gap between the members of the bottom 20% because you have unskilled labor that people were doing that they can’t do anymore so the more we automate, the more we take away people’s jobs and that’s bad socially.

What you’re describing sounds like a way to fix that problem where we know that there’s going to be more jobs in technology but that’s skilled labor and it requires learning so if we can lower the barrier to entry on that learning to allow people to transition from unskilled labor to skilled labor that is at a lower barrier than we can better our social circumstances in our economy.

Maria:           Exactly, because everyone is saying, go into code, go into code, go into tech, go into tech, but they’re not really giving people guidance on how do you actually do that.

Charles:        Well and with the custom Boot Camps too it’s like, “Okay, I want to go into tech but I don’t have $12,000 or $16,000 or whatever it costs to go. How do I do that?

Maria:           How do you do that? That’s the big question. There are non profit Boot Camps like the Turing School in Colorado. They’re really cool.

Charles:        I know Jeff Casimir over there.

Maria:           Yeah, I’ve talked to him once on the phone. He’s really nice. Also the Grace Hopper Academy that teaches JavaScript, you guys should probably get their dean on the show.

Charles:        That would be great.

Maria:           You should really get her on the show. I forgot her name right now.

Charles:        We also had Quincy Larson.

Maria:           From Free Code Camp.

Charles:        Free Code Camp, yeah. That’s an online program. In fact, I found out one of my neighbours is doing it in her spare time. She’s got five kids, her husband works for Vivint which is the security company. It’s just funny. I was like, “Oh, really? She was like, “Yeah, I love coding.” I would’ve never thought that that would be a thing that she would enjoy.

Maria:           But she’s enjoying it because she [00:27:34].

Charles:        She has physical limitations too so she can’t go do [00:27:39].

Maria:           Exactly. But we should be able to provide that kind of [00:27:42] where you can go learn how to do something because I feel like coding eventually become like literacy like people know how to read and write code. Not everyone will go into build like the next .NET or the next JavaScript but we do need to have people to be able to understand it. Because if we’re telling people to go into tech as a future, we need to provide an entry for them so it’s available to everyone the same way reading and writing is available to most people so we need to do the same thing. Things like being able to find, that’s important, to be able to actually find. Not like, “Oh, here’s a day good, [00:28:19].” No this is three months where we can actually change your life. We can actually do something that’s going to be impactful.

Charles:        When I was going to college, I went to college full time and I worked part time, but these Code Camps, a lot of the Boot Camps are set up in such a way to where you’re in school all day and then you go home and work the extra [00:28:39]. You really don’t have time to hold another job.

Maria:           You don’t. It’s intense. That’s like 40 hours a week or something like that.

AJ:                It’s more than that. The Code Camps are full time plus.

Maria:           Yeah, it’s full time. I think it’s 40 hours of in person study, not including the extra works, the assignments and submitting them.

AJ:                You spend between 6 and 10 hours everyday at the Code Camp and then you go get something to eat, you work on more project stuff. You come back in the morning and grab Dunkin’ Donuts on your way and then you’re at it again. People, especially during the projects weeks, people will be at the Code School for 12, 16, 20 hours.

Charles:        Right. Working on the [00:29:29].

Maria:           Yup. Working their [00:29:30] project. Everything [00:29:33] is different. I’ve only worked for three, so far, in general but I’m hoping to work with about 14 by the end of the year. Hopefully by the end of the year .NET [00:29:45] into the next financial year, so in 2017, .NET will hopefully be in 6 to 14 different Boot Camps across the country but success to me is more than just like, “Oh, did we get it in there?” But did we get it in there and the students are successful. Are they actually able to get junior developer .NET jobs across the country? Because if you actually look at the numbers like [00:30:06], do you know them? The tech recruiting company.

Charles:        Yes.

Maria:           I was reading a paper that they did earlier this year. You look at the top five jobs across the country with the exception of San Francisco, .NET and C# appear in the top five jobs. [00:30:25] .NET jobs. They exist on average they can make up to 8% more for entry level jobs and I was like, “Ha! Do this people know about this?” Because when people think about .NET, they think about enterprise, like major enterprise. They’re thinking about Microsoft and Google and all these huge places.

AJ:                When I think about .NET before, a terrible vision, dreaded vision that I’d had in my head is like a cubicle where there are no doors and no windows. And only fluorescent lights flickering them once and a terminal CRT.

Charles:        AJ, Microsoft always had windows in those rooms.

AJ:                But they weren’t working.

Charles:        Yeah. I have a background as a Windows system administrator when I was in college. It was an enterprise. That was always the vision I had in my head, you either had the desktop version on your computer or you [00:31:32] for the enterprise because that was my experience.

Maria:           The thing that when people see that and they think it’s always the big company, they can get intimidated. They’ll be like, “I went to a Boot Camp. How am I going to compete with someone who went to college?”

Charles:        Ultimately. So, I’m writing a book called Find a Job as a New Programmer.

Maria:           Oh, cool.

Charles:        Yeah, what I tell people is look, the company, if they are hiring people with degrees on purpose is because their perception is that those people can solve their problems better than somebody else. The reality is if you show up. Having graduated in Boot Camp and you can demonstrate, you can solve problems better than the college grads, they will hire you instead.

Maria:           100%. There are actually programs in place, like a lot of these big companies. I know Walmart has one. I know Microsoft has them. There’s a Microsoft lead program that actually specific to help and recruit from Boot Camps. Where they actually work and say, “How do we get these people into Microsoft?” That’s big because when we’re investing, how do we get to it?

Charles:        There are a number of large companies that famously had a college degree as part of their requirements. You had to have a Computer Science degree in order to get hired there. Many, many of them are dropping that requirement now because they can get those people to run their places. They do just as good at job.

Maria:           Some of the most amazing developers I’ve met didn’t do Computer Science at school. My friend, Stacy Mulcahy, she moved over to Canada, she was a journalist and now I think she’s one of the respected people in HTML, JavaScript and now she runs a Microsoft [00:33:12] in Vancouver. She was like, “I was a journalist. I had every intention of working for the New York times and here I am working for Microsoft, building IoT stuff. she has all these pictures on Twitter. You should check out. She’s @bitchwhocodes on Twitter. I don’t know if you guys know her.

Charles:        I don’t know her but I would love an introduction.

Maria:           She’s amazing. She’d definitely a person that you should have on the show because she has very interesting perception, really interesting view in how people get into code. It’s a different path for everyone. That’s the whole thing. I went to school and school was my path. I did Computer Science [00:33:47]. I was like why did I do [00:33:49]? I’m not using it now but it was  so much fun when I did it. There are different paths for everyone. I’ve seen so many people come from different paths at Microsoft and that’s nice to see.

Charles:        Another case in point, when I was the systems administrator at Brigham Young University. We worked with teams of developers because obviously they had to deploy their stuff to our servers. There were two teams that were upstairs in the building we were in from us that we worked with rather frequently. I’m not kidding, ¾ of both of those teams that were building web based applications for the university had law degrees.

Maria:           That’s cool.

Charles:        They realized they don’t like being a lawyer, they like writing code so they went out.

Maria:           Exactly. My sister was telling there’s a mom’s coding group in Long Island City.

Charles:        Cool, very cool.

Maria:           Yeah. They are all these moms who are all doing jobs and they weren’t too happy with their jobs, it was all the way from people who are in HR to people who are lawyers and doctors. As they’re beginning to transition what they’re doing, they decided to make moms coders group. They meet in the coffee shops. There’s like five women and all they just say, “[00:35:06]. We went to Code School. You guys should do this.” That’s big.

Charles:        I’m going to recommend that to my neighbour.

Maria:           Let her start a coding group for parents when they get home. Kids are at school. Let’s code. That can be cool.

Charles:        That’s very cool. Now I need to find them too because I think that would be another just interesting…

Maria:           Conversation to have?

Charles:        Yeah.

Maria:           They’re Mom Coders Group of LIC. I told them they should come official. They should just [00:35:37].

Charles:        It’s funny because in the Ruby community, one of the more prolific and popular groups of Ruby is Seattle.rb.

Maria:           Okay, what’s that?

Charles:        It’s a meet up users group in Seattle. There’s a core group of four or five developers there. They would all get together in a coffee shop and work in the same space all day long. There’s no reason why a moms group in Long Island or anywhere else couldn’t turn into something like that where it’s, “Hey, we get together and contribute Open-source.” Or “Hey, we get together and we’ve all worked on this project that we’re now going to launch as a SAS or user contributor community.” All the possibilities of all these stuff is just getting really exciting.

Maria:           Exactly. A friend of mine was telling me, she actually works at Microsoft as well, where there are a group of girls and boys and they all did a coding camp. They got so excited so they started a tutor group where they teach younger kids how to code and they have a GitHub repo where they put in their classes and their instructions. They do it at seniors. The whole point is that you get the next group of people ready to take over that so they were every single senior class is responsible in growing their GitHub repository. I think that’s huge.

AJ:                Interesting.

Charles:        That’s cool.

AJ:                Are you familiar with JavaScript?

Maria:           Not as much as I should be. Tell me more.

AJ:                I was actually just going to ask because I’ve noticed that the thing that I’m famous for in the show is being a hater of ECMAScript because it’s replacing JavaScript and I actually quite like JavaScript. I’ve noticed that JavaScript really seems to be transitioning to a lot more like what I think of C#, TypeScript. All of that ECMAScript stuff that people are doing, Await and Async, all of those keywords and things that I’ve seen, I think probably in C# and other languages. When I look at C# code I have less of a panic attack then when I look at ECMAScript code because C# code makes sense to me and JavaScript makes sense to me, but ECMAScript does not make sense to me.

I was just wondering, features of C# that are JavaScript-y like Node.js that recently became popular is because there is the event loop. That has pros and cons in running in a single process. For example, if you want to share memory, you have to have two processes and you have to have a socket or something to share between them but in C# you get the benefits of having multiple processes and being able to do some sort of mechanism to join them together, to make it not complicated like it would have been in C or in the olden days. I wanted to ask about some of those details of what about C# is JavaScript-y?

Maria:           I know the right person to ask about that, the JavaScript-yness but a really good person to talk to and you should have on the show is [00:39:10].

AJ:                She’s over there.

Maria:           You need to talk to [00:39:15] because [00:39:15] looks at things like that. Like how do you  make C# friendly and happy and all those kind of things. It’s a really good talking point because when I do talk to Boot Camp instructors right now, a good example is a Boot Camp instructor I’m working with that coding [00:39:36], Dylan. When Dylan first looked at .NET and C# he was like, “No, not doing it.” And then he keeps on telling me, since he’s been doing JavaScript for such a long time and now that he’s looking at C#, he’s like, “Oh, I can learn more languages.” The joy of what JavaScript did in making things more accessible to people as opposed to other languages to be equally as easier to write. That’s actually really good to see as well. When it comes to JavaScript-yness, no. Unfortunately, I haven’t written a JavaScript application in a very long time. I think the last time was in school and I don’t like to mention that yet because I don’t people to guess my age.

AJ:                Okay. Just don’t get in front of any of those cognitive services [00:40:24].

Maria:           [00:40:25] as a 78-year old man.

AJ:                You come out as 78-year old man? Okay.

Charles:        That’s weird.

Maria:           It’s weird.

Charles:        If you ask me I was going to say you don’t really look like a 78 year old man to me.

AJ:                I’m just trying to figure out how in the world that could come up. I’m trying to see your face as a computer sees your face for a second because you don’t have any wrinkles. You have little smile lines but you don’t have wrinkles. You don’t have crow’s feet. I’m trying to imagine, what if I did a black and white filter?

Charles:        One thing that we do at the end of our shows is we have what we call picks. It’s a shout out basically of something, anything. It could be TV shows, it could be technical tools, anything. We’ll go ahead and do our picks first. In that way you can get an idea of what we do and then you can go ahead and shout out about whatever you want. AJ, do you have a pick you want to share?

AJ:                Yeah. I’m going to pick things that I’ve already picked but I still think are great. One is the album Super Cartography Bros. which is an OverClocked ReMix album, a video game. A fun Mario Bros. style remix set.

                    Also, my company Daplie. We are taking back the internet with a home cloud system so it’s more than just storage, it’s apps and developer interfacing and all sorts of goodies. If you’d like to check that out, we have our kickstarter up on Indiegogo. We also have the opportunity for people to invest in the company because we’re doing a for the people, by the people model. We’re on Wefunder as well. If you go to daplie.com, you can check us out and click either of the [00:42:46] invest funds there. If you believe in the cause, love to have you. Join us.

Charles:        Alright. I’ve got a couple of picks here. I just hired a business coach to help me expand what I’m doing with the podcast to reach more audiences, just overall improve the developer experience. Her name is Jaime Masters. She actually has her own podcast it’s called the Eventual Millionaire. She only interviews millionaires on her show. They talk about what they’ve done and then they talk about how they did it. It’s a terrific show. If you’re looking for some content if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re just thinking, “Man, it would be great to find out how people build companies that are super successful.” Then go check it out at eventualmillionaire.com.

                    I’m also going to quickly shout out about the conferences. As some of you listeners may know, we put on Remote Conferences throughout the year. JavaScript Remote Conf which is [00:43:53] in this conversation will be in March. If you want to speak, the call for proposals is up to the end of December. If you want to get a ticket, I have early bird tickets up to my birthday this year which is December 14th. That’s really early, early birds. Then the early bird tickets at sometime in January. If you want to get discounted tickets, go check those out and all of the information is available at devchat.tv/conferences.

                    I also mentioned I do those 15-minute calls if you go to devchat.tv/15minutes. I don’t care if you listened to one episode or several hundred episodes, I love talking to people and just getting a feel for where you’re at, what you’re doing, answer any questions. I’ve had people call up and we chat for five minutes where I’m asking a few questions about the shows that they like and then the other 10, 15, we go over sometimes minutes are them asking me questions about the career and how they can get ahead, how I can help them. Things like that. I love having those conversations, so terrific. Again, that’s devchat.tv/15minutes. Please, if you’re thinking, “He’s been programming for what must be forever because he has his podcast and I’m a new person.” Don’t worry about that stuff. Honestly, I love talking to everybody. Just jump in and do it. Maria, what do you have for picks?

Maria:           I have three. One of the things I wanted to call out is the Codeland Conference that’s happening in April.

Charles:        Oh yes. [00:45:28] is putting that on. I’m super excited about it.

Maria:           Me too. I’m teaching a workshop and I’m really excited about it.

Charles:        It’s going to be here in New York.

Maria:           And in this office. It’s going to be right here. I booked out the whole of the 6th floor. It’s going to be in this office.

Charles:        It’s going to be in this office? Sweet.

Maria:           We’re going to make it look dope.

Charles:        I’m just going to camp out here until the conference.

Maria:           Just do that. I’ll hide you in the [00:45:47].

Charles:        Oh, there we go.

Maria:           We got this. I’m really looking forward to that. The next thing I’d like to call out is a graphic novel I just finished reading called March by Congressman John Lewis. I don’t know if you guys know Congress John.

Charles:        I don’t. Is he from here?

Maria:           Yes.

Charles:        Okay.

Maria:           He was one of the people who marched on Washington and walked with Martin Luther King. Reading that book has given me so much exposure to America because I’m not an American so I put insight to something I had never known before. The fact that it’s a graphic novel is just so amazingly beautiful because I love to draw. I’m an artist myself. I draw a lot of graphic models myself.

                    The last thing I’d like to call out is the Microsoft Virtual Academy that I did on getting started with ASP.NET Core. I’m really excited about that because we really, really worked hard to make sure that we lower the point of entry and we made it easy to understand for anyone who’s coming into .NET for the first time or someone who has .NET experience. We’ve got amazing feedback on that so you can follow me on Twitter, @LadyNaggaga.

Charles:        Awesome. Thank you very much for talking to us. This has been really fun. There’s so much to talk about in programming and I think sometimes we get so focused on the technical stuff that we forget to talk about the community. Even though we have JavaScript communities and .NET communities, we all are part of the programming community and we’re all working for a lot of the same things. It’s really great to just hear your perspective here and where you’ve come from and what you’re trying to do here at Microsoft so thank you very much for talking to us.

Maria:           Thank you for having me. This has been fun.

AJ:                I do want to splice in one more question if I can.

Charles:        Go ahead.

AJ:                I really am in thrilled by the Raspberry Pi and systems that are like it because they give people a platform that they can let sit. Your laptop, you’re taking around, you’re moving around the place but something like a Raspberry Pi, you can run code on there and let it sit. .NET Core, does it run on Linux and Windows Raspberry Pi or devices like that?

Maria:           It does. You actually can run a .NET Core application on a Raspberry Pi.

AJ:                So I can have my little bedroom web server?

Maria:           Yeah, you could. You could actually do that. That actually might be a really good blog post and project we could do. Actually have it on GitHub and say, “Here you go.” One I would love to see in the IoT area is a device that is, the Raspberry Pi is cheap, it’s $19?

AJ:                $35.

Maria:           It would be nice to see one that is even cheaper because this is the reason why I wanted to be more accessible to more people.

AJ:                There’s a Pi Zero that $5 but it doesn’t have networking support or you have to plug [00:49:08]. It’s not built in.

Charles:        Yeah but there are a lot of other systems out there that [00:49:13]. A lot of those are focused around JavaScript but I wonder if you could make .NET Core work.

AJ:                I saw something on either Kickstarter or Indiegogo recently. It was basically just an Ethernet port with the processor on the board as well. That was the size of the board. It was like $5 or so.

Maria:           One thing I’m huge about its acceptability. If we’re going to tell people get involved in IoT. It’s such an exciting thing to happen. We need to also make IoT devices at accessible price points. That’s the cool thing about code, code is pretty much free now. By that value, it’s accessible. The only limitation is what kind of computer you can run it on but now with IoT, it’s so much fun and everyone should have an opportunity to walk with it. The more we can create IoT devices that are accessible at pretty much any price point, the more we can bring this all over the world.

AJ:                Speaking of IoT, I think the thing that’s really important, that will make it take off in the consumer’s basis when it’s finally able to be private. As developers are able to work on it in their homes because the things that are IoT and those other systems, they’re not something that you can personally, really dive into at home. The connection is all somewhere else. I really like the idea of bringing it to developers in their own homes and letting them create the solutions that hit shows rather.

Maria:           I get what you mean.

AJ:                You know, because for it to be successful, because people are fine with having Google on their phone and knowing where they are all the time and they maybe don’t realize just how invasive that can be but when it comes to products in the home, the products that large companies have tried to put in the home, haven’t been very successful. I think privacy is a big part of that. I do like always knowing about can I do it privately? Can I do it in my home? Can I do it small?

Maria:           Good point.

Charles:        End splice.

Maria:           Thank you. This was a good chat.

Charles:        That was. That was fun.

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