180 RR Barriers to New Developers with Kinsey Ann Durham

00:00 0:59:42
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02:21 - Kinsey Introduction

02:48 - Less Money Conference

03:19 - Kinsey’s Background

06:34 - Degrees vs. Dev Bootcamps

09:12 - Finding Mentors

10:15 - Bootcamps Disadvantages - Kinsey’s Advice

Discouraging Attitudes and Comments

14:54 - Programmer Stereotypes

15:44 - Kinsey’s Own Barriers

16:32 - Advice for Dealing with Barriers

  • Take Notes
  • Mentorship
  • TRY

17:28 - Impact of Pilot and Outreach Programs

19:01 - Chuck and Avdi’s College Coding Experiences

28:53 - “Impostor Syndrome”

30:42 - Mentoring New Developers

31:51 - Getting Hired

35:52 - Networking and Building Relationships

38:29 - Experience From a Different Field

42:27 - Recommendations for Finding a Job

  • Networking
  • Speaking Up
  • Proving Yourself
  • Know Your Strengths and Weaknesses

45:17 - Interviewing Process

  • Feeling Intimidated

48:49 - Knowing People - Networking

  • Pair Programming
  • Recommendations
  • In-Person Meetings
  • Common Friends
  • Desi McAdam

Transcript

CHUCK:  Yeah. It’s the internet, it’s conspiring against us.[This episode is sponsored by Hired.com. Every week on Hired, they run an auction where over a thousand tech companies in San Francisco, New York, and L.A. bid on Ruby developers, providing them with salary and equity upfront. The average Ruby developer gets an average of 5 to 15 introductory offers and an average salary offer of $130,000 a year. Users can either accept an offer and go right into interviewing with the company or deny them without any continuing obligations. It’s totally free for users. And when you’re hired, they also give you a $2,000 signing bonus as a thank you for using them. But if you use the Ruby Rogues link, you’ll get a $4,000 bonus instead. Finally, if you’re not looking for a job and know someone who is, you can refer them to Hired and get a $1,337 bonus if they accept a job. Go sign up at Hired.com/RubyRoguesPodcast.]**[This episode is sponsored by Codeship.io. 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Snap integrates deeply with GitHub and has great support for different languages, data stores, and testing frameworks. Snap deploys your application to cloud services like Heroku, Digital Ocean, AWS, and many more. Try Snap for free. Sign up at SnapCI.com/RubyRogues.] **CHUCK:  Hey everybody and welcome to episode 180 of the Ruby Rogues Podcast. This week on our panel, we have Avdi Grimm. AVDI:  Hello from Pennsylvania. CHUCK:  I’m Charles Max Wood from DevChat.TV. And this week, we have a special guest and that’s Kinsey Ann Durham. KINSEY:  Hello. CHUCK:  Did I say it right? KINSEY:  Yeah, you said it right. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  Awesome. Do you want to introduce yourself? KINSEY:  Ah, yeah. I am a software engineer in Denver, Colorado. I word at a company called GoSpotCheck which is an awesome smaller startup out here in Denver. We do pair programming 100% of the time. And I work on the Rails API. And also, I’ve been working on the Android stuff this week, actually. So, that’s been super fun. CHUCK:  Very cool. Before we get going, I just wanted to let folks know. I got an email from a friend of mine, Allan Branch from LessAccounting. And they have a little mini-conference that they do for people who want to get into consulting or who are doing consulting, freelancing, and want to find out how they do things. It’s called LessMoney. So, if you want to check that out, they’ve got about four spots left. And he just wanted to let people know that those were available. So, go check it out. I went through it and it was terrific. So, if you’re thinking about going freelance or anything like that, go check them out. Anyway, so I watched your RubyConf talk and you talked about the, I guess, what was it called? ‘Becoming a Software Engineer: Inspiring a New Generation of Developers‘. And it was the unorthodox way that you came into programming which now is becoming much more common. I’m curious what your experience was coming up through the ranks through RailsBridge and what have you. Can you give your background and tell us where you came from there? KINSEY:  Yeah, definitely. So, I hadn’t written code when I was younger, or really had a lot of experience with computers at all, besides excel and science classes in middle school and high school. But I was an advertising major at CU-Boulder. So, very much focused on marketing and communications and that sort of thing. And I did a RailsBridge workshop and it completely changed my life. It introduced me to coding and just this whole new world. My stepbrother is an awesome Rails developer. He’s actually on the Rails core committer team now. He’s really awesome. So, he’s just so smart. And whenever he talks, I just thought he was talking in alien language. So, it was definitely really intimidating and I didn’t think that I was smart enough, obviously. And yeah, so I got involved with RailsBridge and learned that I could do this and really loved it. And now, I actually have a job as a developer [chuckles]. CHUCK:  Awesome. You’re a pro. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] I wouldn’t call myself a pro. CHUCK:  You get paid to do it, right? KINSEY:  Yes, I do. I get paid to do it. CHUCK:  Then you’re a pro. KINSEY:  Yeah. It’s awesome. CHUCK:  That’s really cool. So, RailsBridge, aren’t the workshops usually a couple of days or a week or something? Or just one day? I don’t remember. KINSEY:  Yeah, they’re actually just two days. CHUCK:  Okay. KINSEY:  You get your machine set up and then you work with a TA to build the applications that they have through their curriculum. CHUCK:  And then what did you do after that to start getting into it? KINSEY:  I, you know a lot of people who don’t have a traditional background or have been writing code since they were young go to a boot camp, something like that. I fortunately didn’t have to do that, even though there are times where I’m like, “Oh I should have done that.” [Chuckles] I worked with mentors and friends and learning it on my own. And then I was able to get an apprenticeship at Thoughtbot which was awesome. And that was the first time where I really started writing code fulltime, all day every day. AVDI:  Hmm. I think it’s so cool that apprenticeship programs are becoming more common. KINSEY:  Yeah, it’s awesome. I think it’s really cool that Thoughtbot has that program. CHUCK:  Yeah, and they’re becoming more common, which is also very nice. So, I know that several companies in Chicago, Denver, Boulder. Thoughtbot I think is based out of Boston if I remember right. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  And they have some spots out there and in New York. And so, a lot of the major cities have setups like that where people can come in and get experience. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  And several of them are paid apprenticeships. KINSEY:  Yeah, yeah, Thoughtbot’s apprenticeship is paid, which is awesome. So, you don’t have to starve [chuckles] while you’re doing it. AVDI:  [Chuckles] KINSEY:  And I think it’s really important for companies who can take juniors on to be doing stuff like that. You know, there is such an influx of junior developers and just not enough senior talent to be able to mentor. CHUCK:  One thing I think is really interesting is that, so in your talk you talked about how you thought that people needed a degree in computer science in order to get in. And then it turned out that there are other ways of getting in. The boot camp seemed to split the difference on that, where it’s intense training for three to six months, depending on which one you attend. And then there’s the fully blown four-year degree. And I’m curious. What do you think the advantages and disadvantages are of the way that you came into programming? What’s harder and what’s easier? KINSEY:  I think the people thing is easier for me [chuckles]. To be honest, I went to school for communication, advertising, that sort of thing, really studying a lot of that. So, I feel like that part comes naturally and easy to me. But the technical stuff definitely is my disadvantage. And there are times when I’m like, “Ugh. If I had only done a computer science major,” that sort of thing, to have a deeper understanding. Because for me, because I didn’t come from math, science, or a computer science background, I feel like I’m having to learn a whole new way of thinking, not just concepts that I’m using day to day. So, I feel like that’s a huge disadvantage, and not having done that for a long time, like a lot of people. AVDI:  Can you give an example of something that seemed like a computer science-y concept that you had trouble with because you weren’t exposed to it? KINSEY:  Even just yesterday I was going, learning with one of my coworkers about closures and stuff like that and how going down to references and pointers. AVDI:  Mmhmm. KINSEY:  And that’s something that I did not, I guess I don’t have a lot of knowledge in at all. AVDI:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  Yeah, well Ruby doesn’t really expose that. Is that something you ran into doing the Android work? KINSEY:  Yeah [chuckles]. AVDI:  Did you feel like between coworkers and resources that are out there, that you were able to figure out enough to get the job done? KINSEY:  Yeah, definitely. My coworker is awesome. And he really took the time. He drew things out for me on paper, was really able to teach me about it in a human level [chuckles] I guess is a good way to put it. AVDI:  Mmhmm. KINSEY:  And having that or having a mentor or someone who can sit down, like I looked up something on Wikipedia and I was like, “This makes no sense.” [Chuckles] KINSEY:  I feel like I can’t understand what this is saying. But he was able, to have someone sit next to me and explain it and walk me through it and draw a picture was so helpful. Yeah, and I’m sure if I was sitting in an intro to computer science class learning about that stuff with 300 other people, I wouldn’t have understood it either. So, for me it’s like working with someone one on one, mentorship has been a really, really big part of my career and doing this successfully [chuckles] or trying to at least. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  I’m just curious as far as mentors go, how do you find mentors after two days of RailsBridge? KINSEY:  Yeah, luckily because I had worked at an advertising agency before I jumped into this and I had friends that I knew there who wrote code, just different people that I knew in the tech community in Boulder and Denver. It’s awesome because it’s a pretty small community here and very open, very awesome. And that’s the reason I love the Ruby community and want to keep giving back, is because so welcoming and people are always willing to help and answer questions and spend three hours on a Saturday helping you and teaching you. So, I was just really fortunate to find people like that and [chuckles] was able to convince them to help me, whether it was buying them lunch or coffee or something like that. CHUCK:  There’s an idea. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] CHUCK:  Yeah, it’s funny because for clients, they pay a whole lot more than a cost for lunch to get my time. But yeah, if somebody wanted mentorship for an hour or so, yeah they could buy me lunch and I totally would be like, “Oh yeah, yeah.” [Laughter] KINSEY:  Yeah, that’s awesome. CHUCK:  I’m easy when it comes to food. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] CHUCK:  But anyway, so one thing that I see as a barrier for a lot of people is that they don’t feel like they can pay for the boot camp. And they’re not really sure if they’re ready or willing to make that jump to make a career change, because they’re comfortable and invested in the industry that they’re in, even if they’re not necessarily happy. Or they are happy but they would be more, they think they’d be happier if they were doing code. What do you say to those people and what advice can you give them as far as making that change? KINSEY:  Yeah, and I definitely think things are changing in that regard. I think boot camps and immersive programs are awesome. The problem is though that now there are so many graduates from these different programs that the market is becoming super saturated with junior Rails developers making it harder and harder to find a job. But yeah, I definitely don’t think that everyone should make the jump. And making sure that whoever was interested really knew that they wanted to do this as a career and was willing to put in the time and the hard work. I thought it was going to be a lot easier than it was and still is. And every day I still feel like I’m fighting an uphill battle. [Chuckles] So, I guess you just have to really want it and really be hungry and really know that this is the career for you. AVDI:  Have you felt like people have been overall supportive or have you run into any attitudes that have pushed you back? KINSEY:  Yeah, I definitely ran into attitudes that push me back or make me doubt myself and what I’m doing in pursuing this career. So, that’s definitely really hard to hear, especially in the beginning. Very, very discouraging. But that’s more so, I’ve heard more encouragement and have people that are on my side and support me, which is awesome. AVDI:  I feel like we don’t always understand the things that we can say that can really discourage someone. So, I’d be curious if you’re comfortable about some of the statements that you might have heard that discouraged you. KINSEY:  Definitely. Yeah, and a lot of times it’s not on purpose. I do talk a little bit in my talk about if you’re going to be a mentor and really influence someone’s career and path in this industry, that it’s really important that you’re careful with what you say and how you handle yourself even down to your body language. Things that I heard that were just so discouraging were, “How come you don’t know this? You should know this. This is really easy.” So, having people be in shock that I didn’t know something or getting frustrated with me. And that’s definitely easier said than done. It’s hard if you are frustrated with someone, to not show that. But definitely, being aware of sentences like, “You should know this,” because then it just makes me feel stupid [chuckles]. AVDI:  Mmhmm. KINSEY:  I also have had people, like I was in a different country so not the US, tell me that I should be a secretary or I shouldn’t be a developer. CHUCK:  Oh, wow. KINSEY:  That sort of stuff [chuckles]. AVDI:  Yeah, I think the surprise thing, something referred to as “feigned surprise” although I guess sometimes it’s real surprise, yeah it’s something we don’t always think about. But it can be really discouraging, make you feel like you don’t belong here. KINSEY:  Yeah. AVDI:  I guess I’m really, I’m kind of lucky that I don’t have a formal background either. And I jumped in feet first. I was working at a really big defense contractor when I was 18 years old. And looking back, I’m [sighs] I’m amazed that I didn’t get more of that. I had people around me that had been working on that stuff for years and years and they would be like, “Do you know what Big O notation is?” I’d be like, “No, I don’t.” And they’d be like, “Okay, here let me show you. It’s really simple.” You know, that was incredibly valuable to me. KINSEY:  Yeah, and I’ve gotten a lot of support. Like I said, even my coworker yesterday just, I didn’t understand something and he just took the time out of his day to really explain it to me and make sure I understood. That and I think more often than not, that’s been the situation, even though there are those times where you get that, “What are you doing?” or “You should know this.” Also, even having my parents who don’t really understand being like, “Hey, you don’t want to sit in the back room, in the back corner writing code.” [Chuckles] KINSEY:  “That’s not your personality.” But pairing all day, I talk all day, I communicate all day, it’s definitely, it doesn’t feel like that. But, and I do think, to bring up the gender thing, that it’s harder sometimes as a young woman to be taken seriously in wanting to be a developer and an awesome software engineer, just because it doesn’t really fit the typical mold. And I’ve found that to be true. I’m the only woman. I was just interviewing and going to constant interviews where it was just all dudes, all the time. And that’s the situation right now at my work. I’m the only female on the engineering team. But it’s awesome. And I haven’t had any issues. But it’s just like that at a lot of companies. AVDI:  Hmm. CHUCK:  I want to address the stereotype a little bit of the programmer that sits in the back room and writes code. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  How do we get people past that idea when they’re looking at making the switch? I like writing code, but I don’t want to be that person that sits in the back room and has pizza stains on my shirt and whatever. KINSEY:  [Laughs] Yeah, I honestly think that’s changing, luckily, with all these awesome outreach movements and getting younger girls involved and making cool toys that are for girls, girly toys that foster engineering and that type of thinking. So, I definitely think that’s changing. But I’m not sure of a good solid action plan on how to remove that stereotype. And it’s hard because we have shows on TV and movies who just keep pushing those stereotypes. CHUCK:  Yeah. We had quite the conversation last week about women in tech. But I am curious about your experience in just any barriers that you’ve seen or anything that you’ve run across coming into this industry. KINSEY:  Just in regards to being a female or not having a background in math or science? CHUCK:  Both. KINSEY:  Yeah. I think my biggest setback is really just that technical strength and being able to reason through big, hairy problems and know how to break things up and how to solve the problems and how to think like a software engineer. I definitely think that’s one of my biggest barriers. And I’ve only been doing this for a couple of years, so I don’t have a ton of experience thinking that way and training my brain to think in a whole new way. So, I definitely think that’s been my biggest barrier so far. CHUCK:  I know a lot of people who will tell you, “I’m not good at math,” or ”I’m not very good at analytical thinking,” or “I’m not very good at, name some other skill that seems to apply very heavily to deep computer science.” What do you tell those people and what techniques do you use to cope with or compensate for the things that you don’t understand? KINSEY:  I [chuckles] vigorously take notes. So, even when I’m pairing and I don’t understand something or I’m introduced to something I don’t understand, I write it down. And I go back and revisit it later, whether it’s just myself or with a mentor. That really helps me feel like I’m constantly learning and staying on top of things. Yeah, and I definitely don’t feel like I’m a great analytical thinker, but all I can do is try and keep trying. Every day I feel like I have a little bit of gain [chuckles]. So, just keep doing it I guess would be my advice. And have awesome mentors who can guide you in the right direction. CHUCK:  I’m curious. What impact do you think some of these pilot programs or outreach programs have? Mainly things like RailsBridge or some of the other ones where they bring people in who have never really touched code before and exposed them to it. KINSEY:  Yeah, I think they’re amazing. You know, I would not be sitting here right now talking to you guys if it wasn’t for RailsBridge. And I can say that very confidently. So, I’m so grateful for Sarah Mei and Sarah Allen for starting those initiatives and keeping those going. I think they’re really important. And I’ve just seen so many, I volunteer a lot now for RailsBridge and run a lot of them here in Denver, Boulder area. And just seeing the impact it has even on this community and seeing people who wouldn’t otherwise [chuckles] self-select into programming doing it and enjoying it and loving it and changing their careers. It’s really cool, empowering to see. So, I think they’re really important. CHUCK:  Well, what is it about the program that they get right that does that? KINSEY:  It’s an awesome environment. You don’t feel pressure. You can ask questions. You do not feel stupid. You just have time where you can really just sit down and learn and have things explained to you in a way that you understand. So, just being in a room with a bunch of people who are like you and learning that you can do this. So, you build a Rails application in one day and deploy it on Heroku. So, just having that sense of accomplishment and having that sense of, “Oh, I can actually do this,” was a really big step [chuckles] for me in this career, I guess just starting it. CHUCK:  That’s really interesting. I want to compare it a little bit to my experience, because my experience is much more along the lines of what you talked about the traditional experience being. So, I graduated from a university here in Utah, Brigham Young University, in 2006 with a computer engineering degree. My job while I was at the university was actually working for the university in their IT department. And so, I had a lot of technology exposure and a degree in low-level computing concepts. And several of my courses were computer science courses. And so, when I moved into software, it was very natural. At the same time, I felt like the curriculum was very structured. And so, when I came out of there, I came out of there with a lot of exposure to a lot of computing concepts that I don’t know if you can absorb them over the course of even three months. But then again, a lot of it is theoretical as opposed to practical when you’re taking the computer science courses. And so, there’s that tradeoff. So, I’m curious Avdi, what your experience is as well and what some of the differences are, because I didn’t a lot of freeform coding. It was mostly just for my classes and it was mostly throwaway code. And I had to learn what the industry was really like when I came out of there. And I feel like the experience that you get coming up through the ranks the way that you did Kinsey and the way I’m assuming Avdi did it, I’m not super familiar with your early background in programming Avdi to be honest, how that’s different and maybe some of the perspective that you had on the industry that I just didn’t because I was insulated from it in academia. AVDI:  Well, for me, okay so I did… I wasn’t coming from nothing. I’d done a little fooling around. Basically, around the same time that I was taking some, I have a grand total of three computer science courses in my background. I took beginner, intermediate, and advanced C and C++ programming while I was in community college. And that was it. So, it’s not zero background. And I think I’d fooled around a little bit with programming before then. But I don’t know. You know, I can’t say that I’ve ever really felt like it’s held me back much. There are certainly, there are some jobs that I think it has held me back from getting. In retrospect, I’m not sure I really wanted those jobs, or I’m kind of glad that I didn’t go down that road. [Chuckles] AVDI:  There are some jobs that involve a lot more analytic computer science-y stuff. But my perspective on the industry as a whole is that it is an incredibly young industry. And I think anybody that says we know how to teach this stuff, or even we know how to reason about this stuff, I think that’s a dubious statement to make. We’re still fooling around with does it make sense to model software as objects? Or is that just an arbitrary model that hurts as much as it helps? And there are good arguments on either side. But there are other ways, lots of other ways of modeling software, too. We have all these different models that you should see the software as this in your head. Well, it isn’t really that at all. It’s a series of bytecode instructions. So, I don’t know. This is kind of rambly. But I guess my point is that it’s a very young field. And so, I don’t think that formalism is really a requirement at this point. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  I agree. I think generally the degree helped in just the exposure to, in a regular, formatted and thought out way. But yeah, I’ve never had it come up where my degree made or broke my ability to get a job or to do my job. [Chuckles] AVDI:  Yeah, and there’s also, I will also say. I was kind of avoiding saying this out of respect [chuckles]. But there was also the experience when I was working at a big corporation there was the general experience that fresh outs were the worst. The fresh outs from the colleges were the worst because you had to take them and then actually teach them how to program. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  Yeah, there is some of that. AVDI:  [Laughs] It sounds like though that you were actually already doing real work while you were in school, so that probably helped a lot. CHUCK:  Yeah, it did. I didn’t really get into programming professionally until I was running a tech support department for a startup out here. And when I said we need software to handle our support load, they said no. [Chuckles] And so, I said, “Okay I’ll build it.” And so, myself and a few other folks in the support department actually started building our own software to do our work. And that’s where it clicked for me. “Oh, this is A, really different from my experience in college and B, really a lot of fun.” KINSEY:  [Chuckles] Yeah. No, this is great. This is actually making me feel better. I was just, have been feeling down that I don’t have that background and feel like I’m missing out on something big. But I know how to use Git and I know how to write software in a real world, applicable [chuckles] way. So, I guess it definitely has its advantages over having theoretical knowledge, even though sometimes I really do feel like not having that background holds me back. But maybe just because my different perspective or coming from a different background just, opinion hasn’t been taken seriously yet in the industry. CHUCK:  I think there are tradeoffs. I don’t know that the tradeoffs make one path in necessarily better than the other. And I think it depends a lot on the work you’re going to be doing and who you are. So, I know some people that just plain old aren’t cut out for sitting in a classroom for four, five hours every day for college and then going and being in the computer lab until midnight every night to do your homework. KINSEY:  Yeah, I wouldn’t have done it. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  And there are other people that are. And at the same time, I felt like once I got into the industry, a lot of the training that I received in college helped shorten that learning curve a little bit because I’d already been exposed to the algorithms and ideas that I was going to be using to write code. But at the same time, I didn’t understand the pressures or the processes in writing production code. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  And so, those were things that I had to learn. And you get this idea that writing software is like it is when you’re writing it for school. And it really isn’t. And so, there are tradeoffs there, where people who come up the other way through an apprenticeship or through a boot camp or some other way, a lot of times they’re being exposed to a lot of these ideas and being treated like professionals. And so, when they come up through the ranks, they learn a lot of those skills that you need to have in order to write solid production code that you don’t pick up in college and you have to learn after the fact on the job. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  But ultimately, the power in programming is organizing solutions and organizing thoughts and then putting them into a syntax that the computer will understand. And you don’t have to be a math genius in order to do that. And in a lot of cases, the way that people think about things in these other fields, like communications or art or whatever, they can apply some of that to the way they think about their code and find really elegant and clean solutions to what they’re after. They work well. They work efficiently. And they’re not something that I with my training and background would have come up with. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  So, I don’t think there’s a wrong way in. AVDI:  Yeah, and I think one fundamental truth that I’ve found over the years is that just about every complex concept in software engineering is a relatively easy to understand concept with a fancy name. CHUCK:  Mmhmm. AVDI:  It’s hard to think of ever running into a concept where I was like, “Wow this really takes a ton of background study before I can even begin to understand it.” Usually the only things that have felt that way have just felt that way because the available tutorial material was badly written. Again, it’s a young industry. A lot of the stuff we’re figuring out is still relatively basic level in my opinion. And it’s not too many abstractions removed from the bare metal at this point. And like you say, you take a note of something you don’t know what it means. And you follow that lead and you go to Wikipedia or you go to WikiWiki or you search out a mentor who can explain things well. And you find out that a lot of these things with fancy names, they can be explained in a few sentences. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. Yeah, it’s intimidating though, when you see those big words. Or yeah, I’ve been intimidated I guess by concepts that weren’t that hard after the fact. AVDI:  Well, for the record I still get that way. I still feel that a lot of the time. And the thing that gets me through, the thing that I just, that helps me, as somebody who’s been doing this for a long time, it’s not so much that I have the background. It’s that I have this experience of over and over and over hearing of a big, fancy word, going and looking it up, and realizing, “Oh, that’s actually not that complicated a concept after all.” Lambda, what is a lambda? Well, lots of people will give you really fancy explanations of what a lambda is. When you boil it down, it’s just a chunk of code that you can pass around. And usually, if you know what a chunk of code is that doesn’t take, it’s not too many further steps to understand, okay this is a chunk of code that I can pass somewhere else and it can be executed over there instead. Or there might be a better explanation that works for you. But you know, so many of these concepts, they don’t take a lot of explanation. They’re just opaque before the explanation. After the explanation, they seem trivial. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  The other thing that I find intimidating with a lot of this is not necessarily that I don’t know what it is but that everybody else in the group is talking about it like they do know what it is. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] CHUCK:  And so, somebody’s saying lambda and they’re looking at everybody else like, “You all know what I’m talking about, right?” AVDI:  [Laughs] CHUCK:  And I’m sitting there going, “No?” I mean, that’s the perfect opportunity to ask. And hopefully, the people you’re talking to aren’t jerks and will just sit down and explain it to you real quickly. But it’s hard sometimes, because you want to fit in and you want to be a part of the crowd and you want to be a part of the conversation. And you don’t want to look like an idiot for asking about something really simple. AVDI:  And I want to say one thing about that. I am firmly convinced that pretty much everyone suffers from some degree of Impostor Syndrome, especially in this ill-defined field that we work in. I think there is, a field that is young and not as well-defined, there is a strong urge. A lot of people feel a strong urge. I feel a strong urge to feel like a professional, to feel competent, to do things that make me feel competent. And one of those things that I can do that makes me feel competent is to throw around buzzwords and have discussions where it’s like, “Yeah, we all know what we’re talking about here. We’re competent professionals who know what we’re talking about because we know these words. And you know it and I know it. So, I feel good about myself.” I think we play this game. CHUCK:  Oh, totally. AVDI:  I have. I think other people do. And I think it’s important to realize that when you see people doing that, when you see people throwing buzzwords around and seeming like, “Wow, they know the secrets to the universe,” a lot of times they’re feeling the same fear of being an impostor. And they’re coping with it by throwing that stuff around, by sort of cloaking themselves in fancy terminology. You know, one of the things that I’ve noted about some of my greatest programming heroes is that the people that have really arrived, nobody really questions that they are brilliant, is that they often talk very simply and use very few buzzwords. And they break concepts down to very simple ideas. They don’t feel that urge anymore to sound like they know what they’re doing. KINSEY:  That’s interesting. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think Sandi Metz is one of the people for me who came to mind when you were saying that, as being able to break things down super simply. And yeah, [unintelligible] do that. That’s awesome. CHUCK:  I agree. Sandi’s one of those people that even I understand. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  So, besides being, communicating clearly and being willing to explain things, what other things can we as maybe more experienced people do to help newer people come up through the ranks? I keep saying that, but even just enter the field, what can we do to open things up so that people feel like it’s more approachable? KINSEY:  Yeah, I guess we’ve talked about outreach programs and being a mentor if someone asks you a question or whatever, not saying, “Wow, you don’t know this,” those types of things. But also, if you’re in a position where you can hire or do something like that, really taking a risk on I guess more junior developers. I know a big, I guess a big barrier as I mentioned earlier is just this oversaturation of junior developers who are just looking for their break or their chance to work at an awesome company or in an apprenticeship program or something like that. And I do think that there are more companies that could have formal mentorship or apprenticeship programs where someone’s paid and really just taking a chance on someone. Easier said than done though, I know. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  I think it’s really interesting that you say that, because for the most part, well for one I want to point out that most… so there are a lot of companies out there that say, “We’re hiring. We’re hiring,” and what they want are senior people, not junior people. KINSEY:  Right. CHUCK:  And then I know a lot of junior people that are going, “I can’t find a job anywhere.” I think that there are a few things that junior people can do to short-circuit some of that. And I’d like to talk about some of those, and you could tell me that they’re terrible ideas if they are. And I won’t be offended. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] CHUCK:  But you know, there are definitely things that you can do to get a company’s attention. The first thing that you can do is just be the right kind of candidate. And what I mean by that is if you show some initiative, you show that you can pick it up quickly, if they can’t find that senior person they eventually just need someone who is capable. Demonstrate that you are as capable as you can be and that you’ll pick up the rest really quickly. They may hire you anyway. KINSEY:  Yeah, I totally agree with that. CHUCK:  One other thing that I keep telling, so there’s a friend of mine out here and he just graduated from one of those boot camps last year. And he’s had some trouble finding a job. And I said, well did you apply at this company and this company and this company? And he’s like, “Yeah, I did.” And they all told him, “Well, you’re a little bit green. We’re not sure we want to pick you up.” But what I told him to do and he still hasn’t done it, and I happen to know this company is hiring, but there’s a company out here that builds a software product in Ruby on Rails. And what they have is they have a plugin system for their software. They’ve open sourced their software, I should point out. And then they have a plugin system that people can use outside apps to hook into their software to add functionality to it. And the system for writing those is actually reasonably simple. And they have a whole team dedicated to writing these extensions for their application. And I looked at him and I said, I bet you if you went and wrote three extensions, especially extensions that people on the mailing list for the open source version are asking for, and then went back to them and said, “You know, I’d really like a job,” I bet they’d hire you because you’re demonstrating a knowledge of their system. And you’re demonstrating an interest in understanding how they work. And so, even though you’re junior or a little bit green, you have some domain knowledge, domain knowledge meaning how their system works and they’re in the education space so you understand some things about the education space just by virtue of having written these, you should be able to get a job. And they’ll overlook the fact that you don’t have however many years of experience they’re looking for. KINSEY:  Yeah. I think it’s also important to really, when you’re going for something like that, being not only, “Oh, can I learn this and do this,” but, “I have this diverse background of being in some other career that I can bring to this.” I feel like that’s a powerful plus thing as well. CHUCK:  Yeah. In fact, my first fulltime programming job, they actually hired me because I had IT experience. I had five years of IT experience working at the university. And they needed a little help with that. And the fact that I could go out and work for clients writing Ruby code was a bonus. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  And so, that’s how I got in there. And so, definitely there’s definitely that as well. So, the other thing I tell new programmers a lot is that a lot of times if these places have an open job opening, they also have an open desk. And most of the time they’re pretty open to somebody coming in and just sitting in there and doing their own thing. So, go work on your own project but go in and sit with the developers. And when they all get up and go out to the Thai place for lunch, go with them and get to know them, because one dirty little secret about hiring is that a lot of these companies and hiring manages will hire people they know and like before they actually go out and look for somebody they don’t know. And so, you’re already in the door at that point. And if you’re asking questions and getting help on your app, then they’ll get a pretty good idea of where you’re at. And if you’re at the place where they want to hire you, then they’ll hire you. KINSEY:  Yeah, I totally agree. I think that’s really great advice. One of the biggest things that’s made a difference for me getting jobs over other people are getting my foot in the door, to have someone go to bat for me was the networking piece. That’s how I met my mentors and potential and even future employers that I were to have. So, I think that’s really, really important, is building those relationships all the time. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  Yeah. Another good way to build those relationships is go to the users’ groups. KINSEY:   Yeah, yup. AVDI:  Definitely. CHUCK:  And a lot of times, the talks at the users’ groups are a little bit more advanced. But I know a lot of users’ group organizers that if somebody came up and said, “You know, I’d like to do a little bit more basic topic for new people,” they would be all over it, totally. KINSEY:  Yeah. We actually do that here in Denver. We have the Denver Ruby meetup here and they have the beginner’s track before the rest of the stuff goes on. So, it’s usually more simpler concepts and things that beginners should be learning or understanding. So, I think that’s really cool. And even RubyConf this year, which I’m super excited about, is they’re doing the beginner’s track this year. And I’ll actually be speaking in that track and I’m just really excited. Because a lot of times you go to conferences and it’s so overwhelming, and you go to meetups and you have no idea what these people are talking about. And that can be discouraging, just like, “Oh my god. I have so much to learn.” So, having those beginner tracks or beginner routes before meetups and conferences I think or during conferences [chuckles] make a really big difference. CHUCK:  When you get so much credit for speaking, even if it is on a basic beginner topic. The Salt Lake group up here in Utah, they do a primer first and then they do the regular talks. And the primer is some basic topic or some method that’s in the Ruby core or something that people ought to know about. And it really is aimed at the beginners. But if you’re a beginner and you just know that one method, you get up and you demonstrate, I can communicate. I can figure this stuff out, and I know something about something about Ruby. That may be enough to get you the interview. KINSEY:  Yeah, totally. CHUCK:  And the same with the conferences. And if they have a beginner track, then that means that you don’t have to be at expert level in order to speak at the conference and add value to somebody else. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  And then you can put that on your resume. And again, you get credit for it. KINSEY:  Yeah, totally. I think that’s great. And just not being afraid and putting yourself out there has paid off for me as well, as far as conference speaking goes and meetups and stuff like that. CHUCK:  Yup. AVDI:  I want to just expand on something someone said. I think Chuck, I think you were talking about the value of bringing in experience from a different field? Or was that [unintelligible]? CHUCK:  One of us mentioned it. I don’t know. AVDI:  [Chuckles] Anyway, I think that’s underrated, the value of bringing in, of having experience coming in from some totally other field. When I look at a lot of the talks that have really blown my mind and expanded my understanding, very often they are talks where somebody has taken some experience that they have, some direct experience they have with a completely different field that I would never even think about. And they draw a metaphor out of that field that makes something click into place that’s never clicked into place before. And so much of the stuff that we talk about every day in software is just metaphors. It’s us understanding our systems better by coming up with better metaphors. So much of the literature is just pure metaphor. And things like objects are metaphors. When I reflect on the fact that a lot of the really mind-blowing moments in talks or in talking to someone are them coming up with a metaphor that I never would have thought of, it makes a big difference, a bigger difference I think than we realize to come in with some knowledge from something outside of software and be able to look at it in a different and new way. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  I just want to give an example of that. When we talked to Sam Livingston-Gray and Greg Vanderburg about Sam’s talk from I think it was… AVDI:  Glenn. CHUCK:  Glenn. What did I say, Greg? Sorry. My brain’s only at half capacity right now. Anyway, sorry Glenn. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  Anyway, so he talked about the Pac-Man example with the smell from tile to tile. And that’s just an example where instead of taking the obvious computer science-y approach to that, it was there’s this scent or sense of a scent on the board. AVDI:  Right. CHUCK:  And so, yeah it was a metaphor from somewhere else. But by applying it, you got a really powerful algorithm out of it that allowed you to do cool stuff. Sorry, Kinsey did I cut you off? KINSEY:  No, I was just saying that I completely agreed with that. And the times where I’ve had those light bulb moments or when I actually really understood something that I’d been struggling to understand is when someone could put it, or even myself, could put it in a real life metaphor that I can understand. Constantly, when people are teaching me things I’m like, “Oh, it’s like this, like this in real life.” And it just helps me understand so much more. So, I totally agree with that, what you guys are saying. CHUCK:  The other angle on what Avdi is saying with having experience in another field, it’s very poignant to me when I think about one of the programming jobs I had. I went and I worked in education lead generation. And so, we were building a system that would track and disperse leads to schools. So, people would fill out a form. So, we were all the way from the landing page to sending the information for potential students to universities so that they could contact people. And the first three or four weeks of that job was learning curve not on how to program but on how the market worked. And so, if you have a degree in communications and advertising for example and you’re going to work on an app where people are doing advertising or building landing pages or supporting communications infrastructures in one way or another, or supporting podcasts, or any kind of medium like that where it is something that you’ve actually been trained in, then you’re knowledge is as valuable as everybody else’s programming knowledge. And the fact that you can do both and communicate well in each media really makes a huge difference in your ability to contribute to the code overall. KINSEY:  Yeah, I totally agree. And I do think that it’s underrated and overlooked a lot of the time right now. CHUCK:  So, do you have any other recommendations for people who are getting started as far as things that they can do to find a job or be more attractive to employers? KINSEY:  I guess yeah, definitely the networking thing. And like we’ve been talking about, arguing for your case I guess. [Chuckles] And a lot of times if you’re getting a no or think you have no shot, just really proving yourself or saying, “Look, I can value in this way. I may not know everything or be a senior engineer, but I can do this.” And being very self-aware of your strengths and weaknesses I think is important. Yeah, and just not being afraid to put yourself out there, and going for jobs that you think that you might not be qualified for. You know, a lot of times job postings will say you need a computer science degree. And you won’t apply but I think that’s wrong and that you should apply no matter what. And just go for everything and not give up. You’re going to get a lot of no’s. You’re going to go through some really hard technical interviews that are very discouraging and you’re like, “Wow. I should not be doing this.” But just keep going. CHUCK:  Yeah. One other example I want to give out really quickly, and I think this is, I was talking to David Brady. I think it was on the show actually. He gave the example where a common friend of ours was out there trying to get a job and he applied at Pivotal Labs. And he was pretty new. And he just got beat up over the interview. And afterward, when they contacted him they basically said, they gave him some advice. They said, “Look, do these things for a couple of years and then come back and we’ll talk.” And so, even if you apply for a senior position and they come back and they say you’re not qualified for this position, a lot of times you can ask them what they were looking for and get some idea of what the industry is demanding from people who they want to hire. And then you can go and get those skills. And then the next interview you have will hopefully be better. KINSEY:  Yeah, I agree. I think that’s important. And then also, if you have this dream place of where you want to work, you’ve never done a technical interview before, I really don’t suggest doing that one first. Get some experience doing technical interviews. If you have a mentor, have them give you a whiteboarding problem or practice interviewing in that way. Because for me, a big change was jumping in and doing technical interviews when I had never done them before and they were super intimidating. I didn’t know what to expect. But the more I practiced them, the better I’m getting [chuckles]. CHUCK:  Interviewers, don’t make people write code on whiteboards. AVDI:  [Laughs] KINSEY:  Well, [unintelligible] from the RubyConf talk that I think most people liked the most was I was like, “If you want to hire a junior, don’t make them write code for you on the whiteboard.” [Chuckles] CHUCK:  If you want to hire me, don’t make me write code on a whiteboard. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] AVDI:  Seriously, because I can’t write. [Laughter] KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK: Now, that’s another issue. Do you want to read it? [Laughter] KINSEY:  Yeah. Honestly, I think that a large barrier to new developers coming into the industry are these interviewing processes and what goes on in interviews. CHUCK:  Mmhmm. AVDI:  I think that something that’s important to understand if you’re new to the industry is that lots of people who know what they’re doing around code do not know what they’re doing around interviews. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] Yeah, I agree. CHUCK:  That is so true. AVDI:  And I think, so here’s what happens, at least in my imagination. Actually no, because I’ve been this person before. So, boss comes along and says, “Hey, you haven’t done interviews yet. We got somebody new coming in. It’s your turn to interview.” You go, “Crap. I don’t know how to interview somebody. How does an interview work?” So, you google technical interviews. CHUCK:  [Laughs] AVDI:  And you’re like, “Oh, I guess people pose crazy puzzles. So, here’s a good crazy puzzle. I’ll ask them to show me how they’d solve this crazy puzzle on the whiteboard.” [Chuckles] I think variations on that are pretty common. Basically, a lot of people that are doing interviews, they don’t actually know how to do interviews. They’ve never read a book on doing interviews. They know how to code, but they don’t know how to interview someone. So sometimes, it just becomes like a little amateur hazing ritual. KINSEY:  Yeah. It’s really intimidating and can be super discouraging. CHUCK:  Well, and they don’t really know what they want anyway. [Chuckles] KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  So, did he do good on the hard problem? Yeah? No? You know? [Chuckles] KINSEY:  Right. CHUCK:  Is that what you’re looking for? Somebody who does good on a hard problem? AVDI:  So, understand that if you are new to the industry and you’re discouraged with the interview process, understand that it may not be you. CHUCK:  Yeah. AVDI:  It may be them. KINSEY:  Right. CHUCK:  The other thing that I want to throw out there is that if there is that place that you really want to work at, you need to get to know people at that company, because in this industry as in many, many, in fact probably all other industries, it really boils down to who you know. I’ve gotten way more jobs off of who I knew than what I knew. The rest of it was just a formality to make sure that I could actually hold my own more or less once I showed up at the company. KINSEY:  Yeah, me too. And you know honestly, when you’re interviewing a lot, at first I was like, “Oh my gosh. They’re just interviewing me?” But it’s really, as a candidate you’re interviewing the company. Is this a place that you’re going to want to work? Are they going to be supportive of your learning? Are you going to continue to learn? And I can tell a lot about a company just based on their interview process. [Chuckles] So, some of the best interviews I’ve had are just where I pair with someone all day. And they can really get a sense for where I’m at. And I can learn and it’s awesome and see my thought process, rather than having a two-hour interview where they grill me on computer science concepts that I don’t know at all. And have me whiteboard scary algorithms that I’ve never seen on a whiteboard. So, it’s definitely told me a lot about where I want to work and the environment that I want to be in. CHUCK:  Yeah. One other thing that I want to just throw out there is trust your gut. So, if you show up, you go through the interview, they give you a job offer and you feel like something’s off, something’s off. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  And there have been a few instances where I got a job offer. It was for more money than I was making. I would have been working with people that I knew and liked. And it turned out later on that there was some internal stuff going on that I was unaware of at the time. And had I actually taken the job instead of trusting my gut, I would have been unhappy. I probably would have been laid off, and blah, blah, blah, unhappy, unhappy, unhappy. So, there will be another job out there. So, don’t be so desperate either that you feel like you have to take that job even if you don’t feel right about it. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. AVDI:  So, let’s talk about knowing people a little bit, since it’s all about who you know. CHUCK:  I know people. AVDI:  [Laughs] I know you know people. So, here’s a question for you Chuck. Let’s say I am a new listener to the podcast and I’m getting started in the industry. Somebody recommended this podcast to me because it’s so awesome. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] CHUCK:  That’s because we have Avdi. AVDI:  [Chuckles] Okay, so I’m like, “Wow. It would be really cool if I knew Chuck because then I would totally know people and I’d be able to find a job.” So, how would somebody like that get to know you to the point that you might potentially give them a lead on a job? CHUCK:  Huh, that’s a good question, because getting to know me is easy. I answer emails. [Chuckles] If you want to get a hold of me, you just send me an email and I’ll reply. But getting to the point where I would actually say, “Hey, you’d be a good fit for this company that’s looking,” or whatever, that’s a little trickier because I’d have to get to know you a bit, do some pair programming, which I’m totally open to by the way. Maybe see you contribute to one of my projects or one of somebody else’s projects who I know, who can then say nice things about your work, just things like that. Meeting in person at a conference or over lunch is also very helpful. And that’s one thing that I just as a side note, I love meeting new people in conferences. So, if you see me at a conference, saying “Hey, you want to go grab lunch?” or whatever, that’s awesome. The other thing is that if you get to know somebody that I know, so for example we’ve been talking to Kinsey here for the last hour. So, if she came to me and she said, “Hey, you really need to know so and so,” or, “I feel like so and so would really benefit from knowing you,” I’d definitely give you more time, more credibility. So, if you know people in common, that also helps just to get, grease the wheels and get people to know, whatever. And yeah, then just ask. Hey, I live in Florida so I can’t come meet you in person but I’d love to pair program with you for an hour on my project. And I don’t have a ton of free time, but I’d probably make time for one or two people every week. And just things like that, so then I can get to know who you are and get to know what you’re about. And a lot of it boils down to not necessarily your ability with code, but just getting to know you as a person. That really helps too, because then, because I hate recommending jobs to people not knowing if it’s going to be a good fit. So, if I know that your hobbies are, I don’t know, parasailing or something or you have a hobby related to some position that’s opening up, or you really enjoyed your last job where you were working on a particular type of project or solving a particular type of problem. Or I know you’re contributing to an open source project here or there that would make a great fit for whatever system we’re after, or whatever problem this company’s trying to solve. Then I can line that up and I can say, “Hey look. I think you would be a good match for this company. And I think they’d be a good match for you.” But I tend not to send a lot of job recommendations, mainly for that reason, because I don’t know the people or the companies well enough to determine that they would be a good match. And I’m not going to bother somebody and waste their time if I’m not sure. AVDI:  Right. And those are great answers, and I appreciate that, because I think it’s important. If we’re going to acknowledge that knowing somebody is the barrier to entry or can be, then we need to talk about how somebody navigates that barrier. KINSEY:  Yeah. In my situation, I would just ask people to coffee or to ask them about, what can I do to get in the industry, ask their advice. I don’t know if you guys know Desi McAdam… CHUCK:  Mmhmm. KINSEY:  But after RailsBridge I kept following up with her and she would meet me for a drink or meet me for coffee. And just being persistent, not to the point where I annoyed her [chuckles] hopefully. I don’t know, she might say differently. But just getting to know here on a personal level and now I can say she’s actually one of my really good friends. But also, one of my greatest mentors and someone I look up to. So, just starting there by getting to know them I think is important. CHUCK:  Yeah, absolutely. And I know that she is fairly well connected. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  So, if there were a company out there in Denver, Boulder that you wanted to get into then you could ask her, “Do you know anybody at X company?” So then you don’t even have to have that recommendation, “Hey, you should go apply at this company.” KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  But she may say, “Yeah. I know a couple of developers on their mobile team,” or something. So then you’re like, “Oh, well it would be really cool to meet them.” Then you follow up via email the next day. “Oh, I forgot. Let me send that email right now.” And then you get connected with them. And then you can find your way in. KINSEY:  Yeah, definitely. And if she emailed a company and was like, “Hey, this is Kinsey,” I feel like that would have just so much more weight than me cold emailing them being like, “Hey. I want to work here.” CHUCK:  Yeah. And I still get emails sometimes from people who are looking at former coworkers of mine who know me personally. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  And so, it works the other way, too. “Hey, do you know anything about this guy?” “Yeah, here’s this and that. And when we worked together, here were the things he was good at and here are the things he was bad at. Would you hire him?” “Oh yeah.” And that goes a long way, because then they have a reference from somebody they trust. KINSEY:  Yeah. And that being said, it’s important to not burn bridges then in that case, because I feel like this industry is super small and everyone kind of knows everyone through various people. And that can be an issue. CHUCK:  Mmhmm. AVDI:  Yeah. CHUCK:  Especially in the local market. It seems like a lot of people know a lot of other people. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK: And I’ve also seen companies be burned the other way by not treating their employees well. KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  And then have trouble finding people because nobody wants to work for them. KINSEY:  Mmhmm. CHUCK:  Which is also another reason to do networking, by the way. So then, you can ask around, “I got an offer from this company. What does everybody think?” [Chuckles] KINSEY:  Yeah. CHUCK:  Well, this has been really good conversation. And it’s so nice to get that perspective from somebody who’s gone through this a little more recently than I have. KINSEY:  [Chuckles] CHUCK:  So, thanks for coming, Kinsey. KINSEY:  Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you guys. I feel more confident even now going back out there. So, thank you. CHUCK:  Awesome. Alright, Avdi what are your picks? AVDI:  Good question. I actually completely forgot to pick picks. CHUCK:  [Chuckles] AVDI:  Let me see if I have any in my running pick list. No, I have zero picks. Nothing is good. [Laughter] CHUCK:  Everything I awesome. AVDI:  Yes, that’s true. I couldn’t pick a single thing because everything is awesome. Actually, [laughs] that is a good pick. Sure, I’ll pick The Lego Movie. CHUCK:  [Laughs] AVDI:  Which is about a hundred times better than it has any business being, as a self-acknowledged transparent cash grab. I think even some of the producers of the move have said that’s kind of what it is. It’s actually kind of a delightful movie and I’ve enjoyed watching it, actually I think twice now with the family. So yeah, good for kids and fun for grownups, too. Also, spaceships, spaceship, spaceship! [Laughter] CHUCK:  Yeah, for a ridiculously stupid movie, it was really good. [Laughter] CHUCK:  Alright. I’ve got a couple of picks. One is a Chrome extension called Tab Wrangler. I have a whole bunch of other Chrome extensions. We talked about them on JavaScript Jabber last week. So, go pick that up if you are interested in that, a whole bunch of tools and explanations of what you can do with Chrome. But yeah, Tab Wrangler’s one I didn’t mention on there because it just does other stuff. I also want to pick, I’m pulling together a remote conference for JavaScript developers. And I know that several people who listen to this show also do JavaScript. It’s called JS Remote Conference. I have the domain JSRemoteConf, probably have the website up within a day or two of this going out. So, if it’s not up when you hear it, just wait until Friday and then go check it out. It should be up by then. But it’s going to be a remote conference in the evening so you don’t have to take off work. You don’t have to travel. That means that I can keep the cost relatively low. And we’re going to have some topnotch JavaScript folks talking about JavaScript stuff. And it should be really, really good. So yeah, what I’m telling people is you’ll have to DVR your shows those evenings. But then we’ll have a good time talking about JavaScript. Kinsey, what are your picks? KINSEY:  I guess the podcast that you guys did last week. I got to listen to some of it and looked at some of the resources. And I think what you guys talked about was awesome, a really great episode. Also, I was going to say for beginners or people who are getting into the industry to look at things like Treehouse. I really enjoy doing programs on there. And also getting involved in local tech meetups and looking into doing things like RailsBridge or Rails Girls. CHUCK:  Very cool. What is the most awesome thing in all the world? KINSEY:  The most awesome thing in all the world. I don’t know, the first thing that came to my head because it’s Halloween and I’ve been watching this video is a video, I don’t know if you guys have seen this, of the dog that they put in a spider suit and scare people. It’s a YouTube video and it’s the funniest thing ever. So, that’s what I think is the coolest thing in the world right now. [Chuckles] CHUCK:  Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming Kinsey. KINSEY:  Thank you so much for having me. It was great talking with you guys. CHUCK:  Alright. Well, I don’t think we have any other announcements. So, we’ll wrap up the show. We’ll catch you all next week.[This episode is sponsored by MadGlory. You’ve been building software for a long time and sometimes it’s get a little overwhelming. Work piles up, hiring sucks, and it’s hard to get projects out the door. Check out MadGlory. They’re a small shop with experience shipping big products. They’re smart, dedicated, will augment your team and work as hard as you do. Find them online at MadGlory.com or on Twitter at MadGlory.]**[This episode is sponsored by Ninefold. Ninefold provides solid infrastructure and easy setup and deployment for your Ruby on Rails applications. They make it easy to scale and provide guided help in migrating your application. Go sign up at Ninefold.com.]**[Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at Blubox.net.]**[Bandwidth for this segment is provided by CacheFly, the world’s fastest CDN. Deliver your content fast with CacheFly. Visit CacheFly.com to learn more.]**[Would you like to join a conversation with the Rogues and their guests? Want to support the show? We have a forum that allows you to join the conversation and support the show at the same time. You can sign up at RubyRogues.com/Parley.]

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