283 RR Is Ruby Dying?

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00:25 -  Why Ruby is still relevant06:30 - How we got started with Ruby08:20 - Why are people saying Ruby is dying?13:00 - The Ruby community15:00 - Debating the “waste of time” argument 20:05 - Learning other languages23:50 - The “pie”27:05 - Revitalizing Ruby38:15 - Advice for the worrier Picks: Angular for Rails Developers by Jason Swett (Jerome)Vets Who Code (Jason)The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt by Edmund Morris(Jason)Your Money or Your Life by Vicki Robin (Jason)Going outside (Jason)Gitlab (Charles)Devchat Conferences (Charles)The 12 Week Year and spreadsheet (Charles)Devchat hangout/webinar (Charles)


Charles: Hey everybody and welcome to episode 283 of the Ruby Rogues podcast. This week on our panel we have Jason Swett.Jason: Hello.Charles: Jerome Hardaway,Jerome: How's everyone doing today?Charles: I'm Charles Max Wood from dechat.tv and this week we're going to be answering the question that I get asked a lot actually and that is, is Ruby still worth doing? Is it dying or dead? I get asked that actually somewhat frequently. "You're still doing Ruby? You're still programming in Fortran?" I'm curious because I know both of you both teach and program in Ruby so I'm wondering what your take is on that and what you've heard from the community as you've interacted with people.Jason: I personally don't pay too much attention to that kind of stuff. It seems like hacker news every once in awhile there's like some guy writes this post it's like, "I'm done with this technology,” whether it's Ruby or some other thing, and it's this big, long, whiny post and it's just like, "Shut up. Nobody cares." I don't pay attention to that stuff too much and I also think that it's wrong. There are tons and tons of businesses out there running mission critical applications. Ruby on Rails, that stuff is not going away for a long time. The question as to like, "Is Rails still relevant?" And stuff like that, in my mind, it's obvious that it is. Charles: How about you, Jerome?Jerome: Roger that. I liken the buzz about Ruby dying to how new kids are when they come to school. I'm dealing with that with my daughter. She's a new kid at school and now she's like the most exciting thing there to the point where we got three calls where other parents would say, "Hey your daughter is calling our house at 11:30 at night." One girl stole my wife's phone number off of a parent-teacher conference roster because she didn't have my kid's number. That's how I liked the idea of this huge buzz about, "Oh, JavaScript is the future. Ruby on Rails in general are dying." They said that same thing about PHP, they said the same thing about Java, they said the same thing about Fortran. I admit Fortran developers, I've met Fortran developers four months ago actually at my first developer conference that I went to, Fortran is there. I've seen teaching like Ruby isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We actually had a very unique experience in which we were focusing on making a switch on Ruby on Rails education to mean stack but we’ll that's coming back to us is because everybody was running to mean stack, they were leaving all these Ruby on Rails opportunities open to the point where they hiring managers are actually looking for less experienced people because everybody was trying to get this suddenly this is the cool language, a group thought ideology I'm running towards me. We're still 100%, we still have great success when it comes to Rails. In my opinion, Rails is going nowhere ever. If people are saying,"Rails is dying or Ruby is dying," putting their code on GitHub which is Ruby, still Ruby on Rails, taking photos from 500pixels which is a free stock photo site uses Ruby on Rails, their email getting lodging in Airbnb is Ruby, their playing games on Twitch which is built on Ruby, their using base camp for their workflow opportunities, that's built on Ruby. There's some source guys one of which report which is another Ruby company, Lumber Ruby. All of these talks about Ruby dying or Ruby being dead is like, yeah, you're saying that and at the same time half of the things that you've used were either initially built on Ruby or are still on Ruby. I think Twitter moved away from Ruby for more stability when it comes to Java is when the whole Ruby is dead conversations started happening. People don't understand. That's usually a production decision with the hiring developer switching that stack. Same thing happened to LinkedIn where it was a initially a Ruby on Rails app and it transitioned into Java. Sometimes when you get so big, whether functionality or tools you need to bring into the table, you may have to switch stacks or sometimes it's just giving them whatever that person is a new director of development or who's in charge of the stack chooses. 9 times out of 10 Twitter, Twitter could’ve kept Rails and continue to use Ruby but somebody made that decision.You've seen companies scale at amazing rates on Ruby. When companies say it is impossible, we're also seeing it possible. It comes down to just opinion in and not a lot of people are doing their research because everybody wants to be in the cool kid room. I don't know about you guys, I chose Ruby because of the fact that it's not changing every 15 minutes. It's a beautiful, simplistic language that you add the frameworks from Rails or Sinatra or even Rack. You get a lot done.Jason: I think that's kind of interesting Jerome to talk about where did people come to Ruby from, like I personally came to Rails from PHP and frameworks like Symfony and CodeIgniter and then I started at one point playing with Lisp on the side. I was so used to PHP at that point that I didn't really notices its faults. But then when I started doing stuff with Lisp, I'm like, "Wow, Lisp is really cool. By comparison, PHP sucks," so I started looking into it. At that time, this was maybe like 2009, people weren't really building web applications with Lisp so much like they are now with Closure and all that stuff. I looked into what languages are inspired by Lisp and I understand that Ruby was inspired by Lisp to an extent. That led me to look into Ruby on Rails. The reason I bring that up is because I came to Ruby from PHP, other people came from Java and that's because Java in the minds of those people was worse and PHP is worse than Ruby and Ruby and Rails had all these things that are better and so it was compelling to switch. When somebody talks about switching to Node or whatever, I'm like, "Okay, I'm potentially opened to the idea but why? What is so much better about this other framework over Ruby on Rails that I should leave Ruby on Rails behind. So far, I haven't really seen anything that's so much better than Ruby on Rails than Ruby on Rails was compared to anything I was doing with PHP.Charles: I agree. I think it's interesting too. A lot of these folks, what they talk about when they talk about, "Is Ruby dead?" They're saying, "Well, the community size is shrinking," which I heartedly disagree with actually or they'll bring up the fact that there's so much going on in JavaScript and that's all they hear about anymore so that's why it's dying.Jerome: I would argue that that is the reason that a lot of people are sticking with Ruby. I'm on Twitter and I literally see people all the time saying, "JavaScript's coming out with too many frameworks. It's time for me to focus on specializing in one thing. I'm just going to focus on Ruby on Rails." I'm seeing that where people are like, "I don't have the time." Most of us learn web development because we love creating stuff for the web and we also enjoy freedom that it gives us. While we all love coding and being in front of our computers, at some point in time, you’re going to wanna have a real life where you get outside and soak up some sun rays or spend time with your wife and kids and you can't do that right now. Every month there is a new framework from Yarn, every front-end framework, there's too much and that's why I'm seeing people, I know I'm just going to focus on specializing on one thing and that's something that we're seeing in our veteran community when it comes to programming in other stack languages. Like Jason said, when it comes to people switching, I find more people switch to Rails or Swift after dealing with PHP or Lisp or other language. Those are the two languages most people or coming out of. They're going to Swift or they're going to Rails and Ruby because they're like, "You know what, it's just so much. They’re so much more beautiful, little more concise, ease of use, things in that nature.”Based upon our metrics and based from the things that I'm seeing in the Java markets level, I'm not seeing the whole Rails flying. What I am seeing is that there aren’t enough people who are good at Rails and that's one of the reasons why Ruby on Rails is start coming under fire because people aren't taking that time to learn some of the more nuances when it comes to frameworks that give Ruby so much power like activeadmin when it comes to Ruby on Rails. People aren't taking that time to learn that and learn how to truly become experts or knowledgeable in activeadmin. They rather run to something that is always constantly changing but may have eventually a better documentation and are considered easier.Jason: You know, Jerome, as you say this stuff, something you said made me think of something. I think there's kind of a question behind the question of is Ruby dying and the question is like why are people asking that? Where is the question coming from? I imagine based on I just searched and found some core question and stuff of people asking that and the immediate impression that I got was that some of the question is coming from junior developers or people who are disembarking on the beginning of a development career and they're wondering like, "Okay, if I want to be a programmer, I have to program in something so what should I learn? Should I invest the time and effort into learning Ruby only to discover a year from now that it was a waste of time because it's not cool anymore or whatever?" I think that's useful to think about why do people ask that question. I think it comes into play in two ways. One, people who are just starting want to build the skill set so we want to know is Ruby relevant. The other is if I'm starting a new project today, should I start that project in Ruby, or should I start it in something else. I think it might be useful to frame it that way.Charles: Yeah, it's really interesting too. This goes back, you talking about people coming in, it comes back at least for me to the people who say that the Ruby community is shrinking. They see prominent members of the community leaving but at the same time they're typically doing Ruby and something else. If they're going and picking up JavaScript, they're picking up a front-end framework or something and occasionally they'll move off to express or something instead of Rails. But yeah, is the Ruby community really shrinking? Well, the ticket for Rails Conf and Ruby Conf as far as I can tell are getting harder and harder to get. The conference really isn't getting bigger or smaller, it's harder and harder to get because more and more people want to go. The other thing that I've been seeing is that Ruby rose in numbers for a while have steadily grown. Again, that's just another indicator to me that there are at least some people who are interested in Ruby. The last thing that I'll point out is that there are bootcamps in organizations like VetsWhoCode who are teaching their people Ruby and they're able to find those people jobs. The experienced folks in Ruby aren't being forced out because they can't find a job doing Ruby. Now, in a lot of cases, they're looking for something that's going to challenge them mentally or is going to match up with some other criteria that they have for fulfillment and so they may not go into a Ruby job because they feel like they can contribute and write Swift or PHP or something. But for the most part the people who want Ruby jobs can get them. In fact, there's a huge demand to the point where a lot of employers come to me and say, "I can't find enough Ruby people," to the point that Jerome made earlier. If you can find a job in it, people are still innovating in it, new projects are being started in it, and new programmers are coming into the community for it. I don't think it's dying.Jason: Right. That actually raises another interesting question for me which is like, "Is there really any technology that you can learn that would be a waste of your time?" Maybe there is but you can learn Ruby and pretty much get a job as long as you're sufficiently good. You can learn Python and get a job. You can learn Closure and get a job even though that community is way smaller. You probably have a pretty hard time learning a technology and then not be able to get a job at it. I would guess.Jerome: One of the board members, Zed Shaw, he wrote Learn Code the Hard Way series. He says that you should always, whatever language you want to build in professionally, you should always still learn more languages because it can make you better and that language is going to need hellacious assignment that I'm really, really--I don't want to do it, I'm just going to admit it. That's part of my own personal growth is that I have to do things that way. What this is I have to learn C. The point is that you need to become a better defensive programmer so I can become a better instructor for our troops. I absolutely, I'm good at Ruby, I love Ruby, our troops are getting hired, you always have to push yourself and see as one of those languages as pretty horrible to write code in and it's really easy to break therefore you got to write in C. I'm like, "Why would you put me through something that you know is going to suck? I did the military, I served my country, I shouldn't have done anymore sucky things. But still, he's like, "You know what, embrace the suck, go over there and I'll see you in 60 days. That's one of the things that everyone should still hope is all learning as you possibly can but to say because the excitement is gone is almost like saying you don't love your significant other because after that initial buzz is down. “Oh, this relationship is dead." No. it's just Ruby guys are too busy to business logic down because Ruby is just beautiful and easy to use so you could focus on other things.Most entrepreneurs that I meet are in the Ruby community. Most people who I meet, they are coming from an entrepreneurial or startup standpoint Ruby, Ruby on Rails, Sinatra, that's what they do. I see that, I'm like, you know when I was going to San Francisco, they're Ruby community was terrifyingly huge. When you go to a place like that and you go online and see, "Ruby is dying.” You must have never been to San Francisco.What I hear in Tokyo has just as insane Ruby environment or Brazil also has a crazy Ruby environment. These communities here, they're just on fire for the language but then you have people who, because they don't know, like you said, people they don't want to invest in something that's not going to get them a job fast especially coast tools, for profit coast tools on average, charging like $17,000. They're usually trying to make a fiscal decision when it comes to a language. Am I going to spend anywhere from 13 to 16, 20 weeks of my life investing in something that mya not pay off especially when it's going to cost me almost $20,000? That’s not even the cost of living and the bills that they still have to quit their job to do this full time. That's where I see a lot of those questions come from. I don't see that coming from older people in the community or people who have been in web development for some time, the state of Ruby is dead or dying or on the downtrend. Are there more JavaScript projects on GitHub? Yeah, but GitHub is Rails so you're putting your JavaScript projects on a Ruby and Ruby so I think that’s alright, the most popular site that people put their repositories of their code is on a site that is made by a language that people are considering dying.Jason: It seems like among the three of us, we're pretty much in agreeance that Ruby is not dying and it's certainly not dead.Charles: Can I ask a grey area question though off of something that Jerome said? He mentioned learn other languages like C or we talked to Fabio last week and he talked to us about he does Crystal and Elixir as well as Ruby on Rails. Where people aren't full time into Ruby like they were and they’re picking up some of these other languages and doing projects across multiple languages, is that some kind of indication that Ruby may be at least sort of getting phased out because people aren't spending as much time doing Ruby or it's that not even entering to the conversation?Jason: I think you have to admit that it's not the same. I feel like the Ruby community is different today than it was years ago. It's definitely not. My personal observation is that it seems a little bit less exciting and maybe that's because it's not as new anymore but to more address your question, Chuck, because people are doing stuff that involves more languages than just Ruby, is that an indication that maybe it's becoming less prominent, I don't know. I almost think it's kind of irrelevant because it's just like it's a good idea to do work in a bunch of different programming languages because even if you really, really like Ruby, you're probably going to find ideas in other languages that you would never come across by just doing Ruby and then you can bring those ideas back to your Ruby projects. I don't know if that even speaks at all to what you're asking, Chuck. That's my opinion on that I guess.Charles: No, I agree, I agree with you. I don't think it's an indication that Ruby is less useful, I also don't think it's an indication that Ruby is on it's way out. I think people are just finding different concerns that occasionally merit a different paradigm. When they move over to Crystal which is compiled or Elixir which is highly concurrent, it's kind of compiled because it compiles to Erlang Byte-Code and then runs on the Erlang VM, they have particular problems that need those kinds of characteristics. Ruby doesn't provide those. It just doesn't or it doesn't do them well enough for certain situations. If you build a Ruby layer and then you have these other systems for the areas that need them, it doesn't diminish what Ruby is good for, it just shows that somebody is out there actually learning other tools to solve other problems. Jason: Yeah, I think one really important point to point out to is to talk about the pie. Ruby is a certain slice of the pie and that slice of pie might grow and it might shrink over time but the pie itself is not static. I think the pie, the whole pie is getting bigger over time.Charles: I agree.Jason: There's more developers in the world as the time goes on. Charles: And there's more work in the world.Jason: Right.Jerome: My opinion on it is, first and foremost, the we learn more language because one of the books that I first started reading when I was coming out was Pragmatic Programmer and one of the things that it talked about was increase your mental portfolio which is something how do you transition into a software program for the military. I totally understand, learn as much stuff as you can so that you can be as valuable as you can. That's the name of creating your own value. You can do that with your stock and portfolio, you invest, you diverse your after assets. I also like to argue that because Ruby on Rails, Ruby in particular, is such a easy language, programming language, people who work professionally on Ruby have the time to go and pursue other languages to learn things. I honestly started focusing on PHP because I enjoy this guy's company, this guy Jeffrey Raleigh who makes his Netflix style courses called Larkast.  I just enjoy his products so much that I started learning Marble and PHP. That was why I started learning that. It's the same for pretty much anything. If I see something that I like, I'm going to learn that. For that argument of like because people are doing multiple languages is than an indicator that Ruby is dying or is dead, I definitely would say no. I think for me Ruby is always going to be the first thing I go to. How do I solve this in Ruby and that's where my line of thinking is. I try to think how would Ruby solve this. How would you do this in a way that [00:34:49] do this, like what would [00:34:51] do? I think there needs to be a band or something because that's why I try start to with a problem whether it's what life or in code. The creator of Ruby, how he approaches in business. He's a happy guy, I want to be a happy guy too. That's my thought process on that.Charles: I love that you brought the culture into it because the culture's a big part of why I love and stick with Ruby. I'd like to change tactics a little bit in this conversation because I'm also curious. I think we've established pretty well that Ruby is not going away that it's still something that people are going to continue to use in the future and that it's worth pursuing, at least in our opinion. Are there ways that the Ruby community itself could revitalize or bring back some of the energy that we had five, ten, years ago? I got into Rails in like 2007 and it was kind of fast and furious, new versions were coming out. Rails 2.0 was awesome, Rails 3.0 was more awesome, Rails 4.0, I was probably a little less excited about it than I was with Rails 3.0 and Rails 5.0. I'm still like, "Okay, I'll fiddle with this but it's not that different." I'm not being challenged in the same ways and it's not as exciting to be on the cutting edge of the Ruby on Rails bandwagon as it used to be. How do we bring that energy back? How do we get people excited about Ruby again or is that something that we even need to worry about?Jason: I think it's possible but I think it would be really hard because I think what created that big splash initially was the way that, in my opinion, Ruby on Rails really moved development forward. It's like a big leap in productivity. We would have to do something to make another leap forward in productivity. Just to quickly illustrate what I mean a little bit, I was coming from PHP frameworks where we didn't have for example database migrations when we made a change to the database schema, we would go and we would have to remember to do the same thing in production when we deployed that code. Looking back, it's like, "How did we ever work that way? That was just so dumb." The migration's tactic really helps a lot. The cold scaffolding I had in PHP but not nearly as good and just the testing culture that have brought and stuff like that and there's probably other stuff that I'm just so used to at this point that I'm not even remembering what it brought but it was way different I remember when I switched from PHP to Rails, all the stuff that was available. It really moved the fulcrum over and gave me a lot more leverage as a programmer to either do the same stuff way faster or do more stuff than I could before. I feel like Rails 4.0 and Rails 5.0, they were just small incremental updates, it was evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary. In order to make another big splash, I think something would have to be done that's revolutionary rather than evolutionary but I don't know what that thing is.Jerome: I think how to solve the problem is the culture. One thing that I do see and that I give the JavaScript guys, they are better in it than we are. Ruby culture is that they're excited, they're on fire about the language itself. They’re a lot more accepting when it comes to younger and newer devs, they are bringing them in, they're giving them that mentorship, they make their parties, they make their meetups almost into parties where you can learn, you can drink, it's just great fellowship. It was just on fire. Everything from the little cute shirts, with like golfers on it or like yarn or whatever they have. They all have these funny, cute logos and they try to be as low key. Whereas Ruby culture, I don't want to say it sometimes, it's kind of like the Clint Eastwood community where, "Alright, you're cool, you're effective, but you don't say a lot and everyone wants to know are you still drinking the same nasty beer from 1929." That's one thing that we need to do is to start investing more in our culture and focusing on, I enjoy reading DHS' work because he's just on fire about the language. You can tell that there's an earnest honest to goodness excitement about Ruby. It's almost like a child on a Christmas day type of excitement. You don't get that with a lot of Ruby, if a younger person especially when it comes to Ruby or Ruby and Rails, we don't understand, Ruby is a very forgiving easy language to do but Rails has a huge learning curve. Usually when it comes to Ruby, the younger generations will start doing their basic work and they'll start moving into Sinatra or Rack and they do Rails. It's almost like warm work dry. When they ask questions about Rails, it's usually something really simple. We give them a one sentence answer or something that we need to get to that level on our community because we know this frameworks and we're experienced, we can be just as on fire and excited and accepting as the Swift community is.Jason: Jerome, let's say that I believe you that the JavaScript community is more fun and accepting or whatever than the Ruby community, do you think they're doing anything that's that much more meaningful with technology?Jerome: We can't separate technology from the people. I think that's one thing that we keep as Rubyists, we keep trying to use the simplicity, the easy means of our language is better in JavaScript but people still need that social estate. What I teach our veterans, there are three users they have to think about. The first user is the developer who is going to code after you, the second user is the person that's paying for the project, and the third user is the person that's going to be using your app, and that user is most important. We can't separate people from the technology. What's the point of building stuff if we're not doing it for people? In the end, that's what people do, to make it easier for people to do other things. We love Rails because of the productivity that it made people happy. Like, "Oh snap. I can do things easier." That's what made Rails explode. One thing that we're really good at is that like dependable track of our language or our framework. What we are really bad at is our culture and that's one thing that we need to focus. We need to focus on being more inviting, need to focus on knowing that younger Ruby developers are going to have a learning curve when it comes to Rails. We need to focus on helping bringing them along, you need to bring that same type of fire and excitement that Bill Gates and his founders had when they're onstage screaming developers. We  meet that and that's literally where we're getting beat at. It's not what's more exciting or what's better when it comes to technology, we’re getting beat at the people game. That's like saying is Facebook a better product than Twitter. Do I believe that either one is better than the other? No, but what I will say is that Facebook has the people business.Jason: Where are the MySpace guys?Jerome: Facebook tiers about people whereas Twitter being a great product, they never stop when people have a complain. We hear it from all the hate speech or not feeling safe and abuse and stuff on Twitter. They're like, "The world's an ugly place and we are using Twitter as an escape from the ugliness and to connect with people that might want to build our own tribes if you will so that way we can continue to grow and be better people.” That is one thing that Facebook understood. They got and they made it perfect and they keep perfecting that format of it. It’s with leveraging technology how much better it has to be or how easier it seems because it's the people that really matter and they're the ones that decide. We have to think of it from a people first perspective and not as superiority or what's better or what's concise, which runs smoother. We can't think like that when it comes to the form or tone of language used and things like that. We're all champions of that language or whatever we love. As a result, if you love Ruby, if you want Ruby to not actually be dying like you want to stop these rumors or these questions, then we have to be champions, we're the first impressions. If a person thinking about Ruby needs a more practice Rubyist and you're not really excited or on fire or not offering help or not connecting with them or saying, "Let me follow you on Twitter," you're not doing any of that, that shows that maybe I don't want to be around these people regardless of this language. You go to JavaScript, "Hey, here's a beer. First beer on me. Follow me on Twitter. Hey, here's a free shirt. Let's be bros." Next thing you know, this kid that knew nothing he's in love with JavaScript because he went to a meetup and he had 100 followers on Twitter from one meetup and he got new shirt and a bottle of beer. That's what we have to look at. We got to see where they're doing better. It's about people.Jason: Here's a question that's coming into my mind as we're probably getting near the end of the episode is how can we make this conversation useful to the listener. I'm imagining that the person who could probably get the most out of this conversation is somebody who had to question, "Is Ruby dying?" They're like genuinely concerned about it and they listen to this episode to try and get an answer. Mind you on that, it's just like don't worry about it. Even if it is, it's not going to be a problem for you probably, proceed and if you were going to learn Ruby, if you're planning to write on Ruby, just learn Ruby, go ahead, you'll be fine. That's what I would add to that.Charles: There are two things that I want to jump in here. The first one is to Jerome's point. I've been to a bunch of conferences over the last few years and I'll tell you the most boring conferences are the Microsoft ones. I mean no offense, we talk to interesting people and cover interesting technologies and they do have parties afterwards and stuff but for the most part, the conferences are very focused on the technology. A lot of the Ruby conferences that I've gone too have gone that way as well where I remember back in the early days of Ruby, the busiest room was where the people went in there and actually hacked out projects together. They had that open room with all the round tables and you just went and contributed. I'd love to see us get back to that. The other thing to Jerome's point is that of all the conferences that I've gone to, the funnest one by far that I've gone to for the last few years has been NG Conf. Programmer conferences, Micro Conference is a pretty awesome event too but NG Conf is a party. There are sessions, there are places for people to interact, they actually had a fair day in the middle of it where you could go and they had like a murder mystery room, just all kinds of wacky stuff. It was right in the middle of the conference so you paid for all three or four days of the conference and you were there for the fun day because the other talks were the day after. Part of the fun of being part of Ruby six years ago, seven years ago, eight years ago, was being part of the club. Having the conversations with people and being excited about the technology and collaborating on open source projects and contributing to the ecosystem. Now, it seems like people have settled on a lot of the comfortable technologies that already exist which is fine and those are being maintained so there's no problem doing that. But yeah, it's like, where is the club? Where is the group? Where is the excitement?Jerome: Where is the fellowship?Charles: Yeah, and the fellowship. Exactly. We're talking about inclusion but I think we're also talking about culture and I think Jerome articulated that very well. I'm not going to add too much to that. I think you really hit it right on the head there in the way that you described that because if we can create that kind of a feeling around Ruby again and have that sort of a community where it's like, "Hey, this is really awesome," even though a lot of the areas that we can innovate in have already been filled out, there's a lot of excitement, a lot of fun to be had and I think that's the kind of thing that we do to bring more people in and to maybe inspire the next Rails that kind of brings Ruby back into the limelight. Even if we don't get that, if Ruby is just a terrific and awesome and a fun place to be, I think we win. Not win over the other technology, just win because it's a great place to be.Jerome: To answer, Jason, we have a saying in the military saying, "Perception is nine times reality," it's usually when the first lesson. It comes from our idea of dress and appearance of where we come from shinier boots, making sure your uniform is up to the regulations or beyond regulations because perception is people’s reality, your first impressions is when you walk to an office and you see two troops, you see a troop that his boots aren't shined, his uniform is wrinkly, he looks really, really bad and you see a troop, that probably is a bad troop, probably what you like to call crap troops but his uniform is what we like to say high speed low drag, that was the saying back in the day, and his boots are shined back when they had shiny boots they don't do that. I'm sad we've moved away from that now. He's clean and shaven, you would automatically assume that that person is a better troop than the person that came in that looks disheveled. Because of that, that person tended to get more opportunities so we were always teaching perception is nine times reality. That's one thing, if we get to the point where we're like know what? It doesn't really matter. We're indifferent about it, we end up making these rumors or these thoughts into a reality because they see no one's coming back, no one's battling back, no one's saying, "You feel like this, why do you feel like this? How can we make it better," and no one's taking that criticism. Instead of taking it from an expert point of view, we're not looking at it and we're not digesting that and turn around and making the product better be it from a social experience, or even from a framework, or even language experience then we create that reality. In 20 years, we’d be like we use to be Rubyists but Ruby is gone because no one that loved Ruby cared enough about Ruby to listen to the agreements of people were thinking about Ruby. That's one of the things that I learned from the military, always listen to the people that don't know anything about your craft because those are people that you have to convince. You and me, all three of us, we love Ruby and we're not the ones that asking Ruby is dying because people know that we're in this community, people are aware of us, so we're getting all those Ruby questions and all the Ruby opportunities are hitting our inboxes. However, it's the new people who don't call themselves Rubyists, don't have Ruby experience, they're trying to say, "Is Ruby worth it?" Because the market on there when it comes to novice developer or junior devs is getting saturated and they want to know if this is something I should actually pursue if I'm not going to be able to do anything with it. That's one of the things that we focus on. Listen to the grievances or the fears of the people who don't know anything. If you're the unknown, it's literally like," call is like 100% of the problems of the world. Let's listen to the people that don't know and try to educate them through those years." That'll help us in then we've come a better people, better community.Charles: I don't know if I have anything to add so let's go ahead and do some picks. Jerome, do you want to start us off with picks?Jerome: Sure, I can do that. I guess my first pick today is like big shoutout to Jason Swett. I want to mention his book Angular on Rails Developers. We just started reading his book last night, we really enjoy it. As one of the panelists here, if you guys are looking for that type of product that you can learn more about how to mingle your front end Java frameworks with your Rails apps, that's definitely something that I would go and pick out. We enjoy it. One of my veterans and I, we actually last night just come over it and it's really cool. Definitely check that out. That's the only pick I have. I've been really boring lately so I'm still tired from my trip in San Francisco.Charles: When you said we were reading it, I thought you're reading Jason's book to your kids.Jerome: I wish.Jason: Putting them to sleep.Jerome: Ruby was a dream for kids but right now he's more concerned with basketball. Basketball and jumping and that’s my general lacking of not allowing him to eat as much junk food as he wants.Charles: Nice. Alright, Jason, what are your picks?Jason: I got three picks. What the heck, I'll add to my picks VetsWhoCode. I talked to Jerome yesterday. He told me a lot more about VetsWhoCode and it's a really cool organization so check that out. Jerome, thanks for saying nice things about Angular for Rails Developers, that was nice of you.Jerome: No problem.Jason: My picks that I picked out before are first a book called The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt, nothing to do with programming, obviously it's a History book. I started reading this like a year or two ago and a little ways in I got the Kindle version and I'm like, "Wait a second, how long is this?" It's like over 900 pages. I also discovered and it's only the first of three books. If you choose to read that, you're not reading a book, you're embarking on a project if you read that but it's super worth it. If you're into History at all, it's like one of the best written history books I've ever read and that's something that I kind of read a lot. Next one is this book called Your Money or Your Life. I don't really know how to capture that one so I'll just say that title, Your Money or Your Life and leave it at that, really good book also. Then my last pick is outside just going outside, step away from the screen once in awhile and just go outside and get some fresh air. I like to do that a number of times a day and it just helps me so much and I don't think people do that enough. Just get outside.Charles: There's so much light and nature outside though.Jerome: You sound like my wife, she hates going outside. She has all these bad allergies. We're in Tennessee and she's pretty much allergic to the entire South because there's so many trees and so much pollen. Texas, Tennessee, Atlanta, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, she's allergic to the entire region. Our next move going to be because I haven't seen Woody, Colorado and that was the first time I realized her eyes are like brown and not brown with a shade of red. I got to think what we're going to do about that.Charles: My wife's are a shade of red when I don't clean something up. Anyway, I got a couple of picks here. The first pick that I'm going to pick is an open source project, it's kind of a GitHub clone, It's called GitLab and it's pretty darn cool, it's really easy to set up. I think it took me 10 minutes with all. I have it running on a server on Digitalocean and that has been awesome. I've also been working really hard on getting the pages out for the upcoming remote conferences for next year. I still have a few this year, React Remote Conf which I think when this comes out will have started. I'm going to be doing DevOps and SQL that were scheduled for this year. I think I'm going to wind up doing DevOps in January though and then I'm going to have the whole schedule up to next year so if you go to devchat.tv/conferences then you can check out all of the conference talks and see what we've been doing for the last while. The other pick I have, again I've been reading, I actually read this book twice and I think I picked it last week, it's called the 12 Week Year. Somebody in my mastermind group actually created a spreadsheet for you to use putting all that stuff together and doing all that planning. It is awesome. I've put my current 12 weeks up on Google Docs. I'm still getting a little bit used to the program but just the productivity and the excitement that I have around what I'm doing is really cool. I'm going to put that up as well as a pick. Finally, I just want to let everybody know that I am working currently on doing kind of a Q & A probably twice a month Google Hangout webinar type thing. If you go to devchat.tv/officehours then you can actually ask questions and I will answer them on that call. If I don't know the answer, it gives me a little bit of time to prep and see what I can tell you but it also just allows me to interact with people. If you come, there's a live chat and I can invite people into the webinar and things like that. It's going to be pretty interactive and I haven't quite figured out what time but if you go to the office hours page, it'll tell you when and allow you to submit those questions. Those are all of my picks. We'll go ahead and wrap the show up. Thank you both for coming and we'll catch everyone next week.Jason: Thank you. Bye guys.Charles: Bye.

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